Christianity Oasis Forum

[musician561]

Hello all,

I'm a husband and a father of two boys (7 and 1). We are having finacial difficulties and I'm trying my best to maintain and keep my family fed and paying our bills. Now at first glance, one my give the advice to cut unnessesary expenses; but that's just it. There aren't any. We don't have sofas and chairs; we sleep on air beds; only a pot and a skillet; no tv or cable; no credit cards. Soooo, nothing we can possibly cut back on (we need everything we have). The irony in this picture is that both my wife and I have Master's degrees in our fields of study. (Mine is Music). I've the only one working for almost 8 years.(as a teacher) My bills are: Rent ($977) lights, water, one credit card that's being paid ($140 a month) Car insurance (139-141) cell phones (70 and 45) internet (59) gas for two cars..(won't even comment....) grocery's for us all...car maintance...(just paid 179 for brakes)

I really need a life change because I'm often finding myself fustrated, aggrivated, and angry. Honestly, my wife needs to work, but she's staying home with the kids. I don't know how to tell her to change without her getting upset and angry...which would lead to a fight and both of us angry at each other. Lately, she's been asking me to finace furniture....That fustrated me more... I don't know what she was thinking. We can barely get bills paid and eat!!!!

Now I really need help with this one....we pay our tithes faithfull. I happy to give it to God, but I'm finding myself angry because I'm trying my best to maitatin my family and I can't. Take for instance now as I write....If I pay my tithes and offering (230) we will have no food, can't pay our light bill, no gas to go to work, internet would be off ( sorry, can get rid of it without paying a termination fee....over 200+).....So my question is does God forgive/understand us for not being able to pay tithes and offerings eventhough we really want to? I know about trusting Him, but I've been in this situation for a long time and honestly, I'm way to tired of living like this. I feel helpless and discouraged. I've tried to get another job (I have two) but was rejected...I appied for foodstamps and was rejected...I've even asked for benevolance offering at my own church and was rejected and the sad part is I'm as honest as I can be. I need help and want!

[mlg]

Hello musician,

I want to start by giving you one great big Now...please know that God IS faithful to those who love Him....He does not promise that life will be peaches and roses...but He will provide your needs...sometimes it is difficult to wait on Him, as we often see the needs mounting up...and we worry on how we will meet those needs...when we have to just trust that God will meet your needs. I also know that your wife has expectations, and wants, and you feel that as the husband you should be able to live up to her wants...and that's not a bad thing...it just means you love her and your family...but if for some reason you can't meet her wants and expectations at this time...just know that you are not a failure...but that it is just not time yet.

As far as tithes go...I know many will differ with me on this subject, but I believe that Jesus wants us to give an offering and to do so willingly. The amount of that offering I also believe should be between you and God, and that if you find peace in the amount of offering you give each week, then it is just the right amount....whether it be the 230 you have been giving or it is 100 less or 100 more...whatever the amount...I know that God appreciates whatever you give...as long as you do so joyfully and willingly.

I just shared this verse with another soul in this forum a bit ago, but somehow I feel led to share it with you too today.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Prayers are rising for you and yours...hang in there...keep your head up and don't give up.

Take care and God Bless

[Dora]

I just spent an hour typing out a message and hit submit and it's gone!!!! I can not tell you how frustrating that is at the moment!

[Cubby]

i do have some ? for you
why do u have 2 cars if wife not working do you need 2
and what make you think if she goes to work that will help
sitter cost 25-40$ a day gas for her to go to work time away from son someone else is raising him
is there other kids in the area where she could sit them you did not say what her degree was in
why did food stamps not go
why did church say no
have you gone to 2nd hand stores furniture (I have no new stuff)
are you in a mens group at church
i will pray that you will find peace and joy where you are at and GOD will provide for your family

[dema]

Wow, Cubby, great message.

You might also look at the grocery issue. Chips and candy aren't necessary. Neither is pop. An occasional treat is kinda necessary - but the less processed the food, generally the better. If your wife is home, she should have times for things like beans and rice, veggie soup and other homemade goodies. You have the internet and there are lots of recipes online.

Garage sales are good too, depending where you are - for furniture, clothes and so forth.

I've always tithed. Mama kinda scared me if I didn't. So, I am more cheerful tithing than not tithing - and I've actually seen financial results from tithing or being a little late - cars breaking down, refunds in the mail that I wasn't expecting - stuff like that. Butt he cheerful part is huge. Tithe needs to be given with praise and thanksgiving. Your attitude affects everyting. Everything.

[Shan]

Hi musician561,

Warning this is very long but only because I sincerely care and sort of know what you're going through.

Thank you for sharing your burdens with us.

I understand there are a number of those who would disagree with me but I hope I am given the same respect as others. I say this with respect, please look at the scriptures and not what people in the pulpit are telling you to do. Dema is right about your attitude about giving but there is no teaching in the new testament about tithing, the word doesn't appear in the new testament for christians. God does NOT need YOU to do something so that He will bless you and it's sad that people think and teach that God is gonna prosper you financially because you tithe some offering to people that won't even help you out when you need it! If it was biblical to tithe then Paul would have been a rich man...It just doesn't even make sense that Jesus would die for us freely and then require 10% of our income! Please consider reading the following from Paul Howey which my husband and I found when we started having the same questions back when we were about to lose our home, had no heat and kept giving money to a church that we couldn't afford to give. We were blessed before and we have been blessed after we stopped believing the false teaching about tithing. We do give but it is not by some false formula it is what we are lead to give freely and God knows our hearts when we give and He wants a cheerful giver. Again, here is Paul Howey speaking about this matter and he does better than I so I see no sense in fixing something that ain't broke. God bless you in leading you to the truth.


Is tithing Biblical? Sure, if you happen to be a non-Christian Jew who is still erroneously living under Old Testament law**. But tithing is not Biblical for Christians.

As shocking as this may sound, tithing is a literal fraud (mostly unintentional) that has been perpetrated for many years upon most of Christianity in general. Christians have been literally robbed by people that are so deceived in this area that they think it is God’s will and mandate for them to do so. Very few modern tithe teachers realize that they have no rights whatsoever to exact a tithe from Christians. And very few are open to a warning on the subject. Many have become so entangled in “needing” this money, among other things, to pay massive building debts (debts they had no Biblical right to incur in the first place).

Tithing is strictly for the non-Christian Jew and many Jewish scholars will gladly tell you this. Jewish people who have become Christians (Judeo Christians or Messianic Jews) are actually free from the tithe and from all Old Testament ceremonial law although some of them may not realize this. While the moral law and much of the civil law remains (such as in ethical standards), Christians are not under the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. According to Galatians 3, those who try and keep any part of the ceremonial law must keep the whole law. It is a vain and futile thing to attempt.

In brief, tithing is never once taught in the New Testament, which is the blueprint for the Church and for Christian living. Some argue that Jesus upheld tithing in the New Testament. But what they fail to recognize is when Jesus told various men in the New Testament that they should not neglect the tithe is because those men were Jews, not Christians and Jesus had not yet died and rose from the dead redeeming us in general from ceremonial Jewish law.

Malachi 3:8-12 is widely used as a hammer by church authoritarians who are determined to fund their grand ambitions, but these Old Testament verses were written specifically to Israel not to Christians. 8"Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In (tithes and offerings. 9"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you! 10"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows. 11"Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes," says the LORD of hosts. 12"All the nations will call you blessed, for you shall be a delightful land," says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:8-12 NASB

There are very few Christens who are unfamiliar with the ungodly misapplied pounding of the above verses into their heads. Many unbelievers are also quite familiar with these verses from Malachi as well, often more familiar than any other verses in the Bible. That should tell you something! The tithing error is big business. This is what funds lunatic false teachers in the pulpit. We as Christians are commanded to not give under compulsion but rather as cheerful givers. But here’s the thing:

It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to keep the Bible’s command to not give under compulsion while believing that we owe a compulsory tax of 10% of our income to some charlatan to spend any way that he wants.
Tithing is a system of policed and enforced “giving”, which is not voluntary giving at all but an involuntarily taxation. This is not remotely close to cheerful givers commanded to not give “under compulsion” as the Bible clearly teaches in 2Cor 9:7.

“Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” 2Cor 9:7 NASB
But how can one do as he has purposed in his own heart if he or she is at the same time forced to tithe? Well, some tithing advocates who pound Malachi 3 claim that the voluntary aspect of 2Cor9:7 pertains only to additional offerings or choosing where to tithe. But if the “where” was optional, then why does Malachi 3 set the storehouse as the exact “where” or place where the tithe must be given? The where is not optional. The problem is Malachi 3 does not apply in any way to Christians but rather only to Israel. Many of these tithe teachers mix Old and New Testament Scriptures together in a random haphazard way in order to try and get the Bible to say whatever they want it to say. This erroneous approach to Bible interpretation is often quite evident in many of their other teachings as well.

Briefly, you should NOT tithe. But, this is one of the hardest false teachings and false “church” habits to break. The reason is because we have been so utterly pounded with endless fear tactics and other mental gymnastics in order to keep us tithing. We think we’ll lose our job or our car will break down or some other fear based lunacy that these guys teach. It’s all unbiblical nonsense. Who is the direct beneficiary of the tithe teaching? You guessed it. The tithe teacher!

A few quick bullet points (but there is much more to be said on this subject):


•Tithes were never collected in cash (livestock and crops only).
•Tithes were collected only by Levitical priests.
•A Levitical priest must be Jewish.
•A Levitical priest must own no personal property. (Have you seen any pastors lately who own no personal property?)
•There are presently no more of these priests in existence today so we know we have lots of counterfeit Levitical priests running around.
•Tithes were often mandated by God for other uses such as giving to the poor. Tithes were sometimes to be used for the personal needs of the person who tithed. (When have you ever seen a pastor give the tithe back to the giver?)

The same men who teach the tithe gladly eat pork (which is OK for any Christian to do). But anyone who keeps any Old Testament ceremonial law (such as tithing) must keep all the Old Testament ceremonial laws (including the law that states that eating pork is forbidden). We also do not see these tithe teachers slaughtering bulls and goats as sacrifices to God (not that any Christian should). The point is, these men pick and choose to pull forward from the Old Testament law whatever they want and they have chosen to keep the tithe and throw out what is inconvenient (such as the prohibition on owning personal property, the prohibition on eating pork, animal sacrifices, etc.) in a nutshell whatever they don’t like and whatever does not suit them.

This is only a brief introduction to the tithing error. Again, much more could be said on this subject.


Paul Howey

**Tithing is only "biblical" per se for an unbelieving Jew strictly from the perspective of and within their religion and theology of Judaism. The Old Covenant with its laws, ordinances and observances has passed away and is no longer is in force for anyone. Jewish people are not actually under the Old Covenant and of course they too need Christ in order to be saved. A Jewish person is not even Abraham's descendant without faith in Christ: Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham...And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Gal 3: 7, 29


His website is called truthguard.com


Here is one more article



Whether you are interested in escaping the tithing error yourself or if you are already free from it and would like to help others escape, the following information will hopefully help.



Because of all the fear of being “cursed” which dubious teachers have incorrectly instilled in Christians regarding any failure to tithe, tithing is not surprisingly one of the most difficult bad habits for Christians to break. So when dealing with individual Christians or entire churches that are dead set on tithing, even if you have an opportunity to bring the truth to help expose this error, it will likely take some time for their overall mindset to change from tithing to non-tithing. This is to be expected. But nevertheless, to be effective, whatever we do to try to help Christians come to the truth on any subject should be done in gentleness, love and patience.



In deconstructing the complex tithing error, we cannot force the correct view upon others but we can gently persuade them by bringing the truth about tithing from the Bible. This includes pointing out the following:



According to 2Cor9: 6-7, Christians are supposed to be cheerful givers as led by the Holy Spirit, not giving under compulsion or out of necessity but instead (as implied in this passage), by love. It is impossible for someone to keep the command to not give under compulsion or necessity while at the same time incorrectly believing that they owe a compulsory or necessary tax of 10% of their income.



I already covered many of the important Scriptural points that expose tithing as an error in my article Is Tithing Biblical?



A Few Practical Suggestions


Even upon the presentation of solid evidence refuting the tithing myth, surely many Christians will resist the truth and demand that they pay their tithes anyway. In the meantime, for those people, a church could consider collecting their tithes cheerfully, saving it for them and then giving the money back to them individually, in full, as a gift at a later time. For those who insist on tithing and who do so in cash or anonymously, maybe suggest establishing a general fund where 100% of that money is distributed back among any congregation members who are in financial need and among the poor in the community. I think such an assembly would quickly become known as a church of profound love in action.


Christians should also be encouraged to be sensitive and aware of any needs around them so that they can give directly to people who are struggling financially whenever possible. This bypasses a lot of the unnecessary red tape, bureaucracy and waste that is present in most churches today. Recipients of such gifts often have no problem interpreting such generosity as the love of Christ in action. This can open up many doors for the Gospel message to be presented and received.


We also see what amounts to much inter-believer giving in the New Testament as early Christians gave to other Christians directly without first giving the money or item to the church to distribute. This should be encouraged as well. But of course if a church as a whole has a genuine need or would like to give a gift to another church for example, this need can be presented to the church to see who would like to donate to that particular cause. It’s all based on freewill giving not compulsory giving.


Let Us Reason With Logic and Common Sense


We should also consider appealing to the logic and common sense of those caught in the tithing error. In addition to being unbiblical, tithing for the Christian just doesn't make sense for a number of reasons. God says, “Come let us reason together”. So unless we are dealing with a mystery or other unexplainable spiritual thing beyond our human comprehension, it is clear that God expects us to reason things out carefully and to use common sense and logic when interpreting the Scriptures. Many Christians need to be made aware of this simple fact.


Unfortunately with all the bad teachings on so many topics today, Christians haven’t learned to think for themselves according to what the Bible teaches about any particular subject let alone about true Biblical giving vs. tithing. Christians should be encouraged to think for themselves.

Some Things to Keep in Mind:

(These are just some brief overviews. I am not going into much depth on any of the following topics.)





Failure to Tithe Does Not Bring A Curse



If a Christian is under the typical wrong impression that God will curse them if they don't tithe, then that myth should be carefully dispelled. Otherwise they will be afraid to convert to freewill giving over time (as they hopefully come to a true understanding of what the Bible really teaches in the area of Christian giving). Again, it is especially hard for Christians to break the tithing habit if they have been wrongfully convinced that they will be cursed and lose their family, health, job or car, etc. for not complying. Tithe teachers love to misquote Malachi 3 to try to scare Christians so much so that their wallets and purses will come flying open. Some tithe teachers are so evil and twisted that they teach that a Christian will lose their salvation if they fail to tithe. What rubbish!



Tithing Does Not Bring A Blessing



Additionally, many Christians believe that God has and is continuing to bless them based in no small part on their tithing. Christian business owners for example will often claim that it is their tithing that is responsible for prospering their businesses. Among many other problems with this mindset, it is man and not God who gets the glory in these situations. And, logically we can line up dozens of unbelieving millionaire business owners who have never once tithed and yet have greatly prospered financially. Do unbelievers say that their lack of tithing has brought them increase? Of course not. Similarly, not only is it unbiblical, but it is not logical to claim that tithing brings increase. The often misquoted Malachi 3 passage seems to promote a big blessing to all those who tithe. But Malachi is an Old Testament book that was written to Jews, not Christians and it was written for a specific purpose and situation.



A Major Red Flag



Furthermore, the Bible says that God sends the rain on the evil as well as the good. This doesn't suddenly change once a person becomes a Christian. An unbeliever is not penalized with the loss of God's continuing provision upon become a Christians whereby they are somehow now forced to tithe just to enjoy a privilege that they already had before becoming a Christian. The nonsensical tithing doctrine requires just such a change to be mandatory. This is one of the major red flags that exposes the tithing doctrine.



The Modern Tithing Doctrine Undermines the Gospel



Just by listening to what some unbelievers have to say on the subject of tithing, it quickly becomes clear that the modern tithing doctrine undermines the Gospel message and keeps a lot of people from coming to Christ. It just doesn’t make any sense that Jesus died freely for our sins yet He charges us 10% of our income like some kind of club dues or fees. Something seems fishy because it is. Many unbelievers refuse to consider the Gospel message because of this very conflict. The truth is we owe 100% of our lives and 100% of our money to be put at God's discretionary use as He sees fit. Of course our lives and money are not to be given to some man or group of men to spend for us. And, we don’t dedicate our lives and money to God in some foolish attempt to try to buy our salvation, but rather in thankfulness towards God for the salvation that Christ has already bought and paid for at the cross through His death and resurrection.

Giving is Not About Percentages

Many Christians are locked into the Old Testament idea of 10% being their “first fruits”. In Christ our whole lives including our time and money are our “first fruits” that are to be offered to God. We are not at 10%, we are at 100%. If we see a homeless person who temporarily needs 20% of our week’s income, then 10% should not limit us. Or, if only a single need is presented to us and we donate what amounts to 3% of our income for a particular time frame, we are not required to find something else just to religiously give the remaining 7% for a total of 10%. It’s not about percentages but obedience to God at any moment.

For example, if 98% or more of our income is truly necessary to properly take care of our family and we cheerfully give it for their support, them we are spending that money exactly they way God wants it to be spent. The Bible makes it clear that a man who does not care for his own family is worse than an infidel. Many more examples could be given. Regardless, we shouldn’t even be thinking in terms of percentages. Christ has set us free from such limitations.

Freedom or Unending Slavery?

The Bible also says that God has given us all things to enjoy. So not only can all our money be spent in joy as we take care of our families, take care of ourselves, pay our bills and give what we can to others, some of our money is actually to be used for our own personal enjoyment as long as such expenditures are made in modesty and not excess and sin. The Scriptures teach that all things should be done in moderation.

Tithe teachers lack the love of God and make no such provisions for our provision, joy or our enjoyment. They pound out their misinterpreted legalistic requirements and yell their demands and threats from the pulpit. They relentlessly demand money even when we cannot afford to give. They are like that slave-owning Pharaoh of old who required bricks to be made without straw. Their demands are ever increasing and relief is never in sight. Thank God we know the truth and thank God we serve the real God who loves us.

For those who do not follow God directly (like Israel who rejected God and instead wanted a man as their king) they suffer a kind of self-imposed curse of blindness where they now serve and submit to a Pastor-Pharaoh instead of Christ.
Tithing Often Leads to Debt

Tithing leaves no room for different individuals or families of different income levels to give or retain more or less according to what they have. God expects us to give according to what we have not according to what we do not have. Tithing for the Christian as popularly taught allows no such room for variations in income or financial circumstances.

With the average working class family probably being unable to save even 5% of their income, it is little surprise that so many Christians are broke and have no money left for their families or for the poor. By the time they pay 10% of their income plus offerings plus some ridiculous building fund commitment, virtually all discretionary income has gone right out the window and many Christians go into debt just to try to bridge the gap in leading a normal life. It’s a devastating and vicious cycle yet the tithe teachers get richer and the unnecessary palatial buildings that they build grow larger and larger.

The New Indulgences
Tithing as practiced in most churches has become quite a bit like the Roman Catholic doctrine of paying indulgences. Christians get to reserve 100% of their lives and 90% of their money by paying only 10% of the income, effectively giving less than 5% of their overall lives to the Lord. They think they have purchased a license to do whatever they please and to turn a blind eye towards any real needs around them because they “paid their tithes”. It’s kind of like an I already gave at the office mentality. For the others that I mentioned, after tithing they are so broke that they have no money left over to use or give to anyone.

The Multi-Billion Dollar Fraud
Fraud even innocently perpetrated is still fraud in the eyes of the law. Although tithing is often innocently promoted by some well meaning yet highly misguided teachers, it is also pushed by some very greedy people, some of who are very much aware of the tithing error. Their love of money supercedes any interest in truth. And, far from being just another error, the modern tithing doctrine has become what amounts to a major multi-billion dollar fraud that has been and continues to be perpetrated upon the vast majority of Christians. Tithe teachers should be very careful. When it comes to money, especially such astronomical tax-free amounts, the government doesn’t take financial fraud lightly.

Even in church circles, even under the supposed protection of “spiritual matters” and the separation of church and state, if the government ever decides to get involved, and decides to look deeper into what is really going on here, tithe teachers could face some serious jail time and be required to give the money back and / or pay taxes on it. Such a crackdown could permanently compromise the tax-exempt status of even legitimate non-tithe promoting ministries such as some of those who help the poor. Jesus paid His taxes so I am not overly concerned about ministries having a tax-exempt status but these tithe teachers are playing fast and loose with billions of tax-free dollars, abusing multitudes financially, and they may end up in serious trouble with the law and end up ruining the tax-exempt status of all ministries even good ones.

-Paul Howey

[musician561]

Thank you all for your replies and words of encouragement, kindness, and wisdom.

To comment on a few questions and suggestions: First, my wife has a Master's degree in a Marriage and Familiy/Christian Counseling (How ironic....I know) She is(I believe) OCD a bit. If she came to your house for dinner, she probably would eat. If you gave her sofas and chairs, she'd either give them away or throw them out. A bit superstitiuos....I appreciate her cleanliness, but to be honest, it is a bit overbarring...especially when she rubs it off on me..(LOL) But really,she has her issues, and I'm cool with God working with both of us, as I have my share of issues, also.

We have two cars because they are paid off (thank God) I wouldn't ever sell them because we need them. I have to drive about 70 miles a day (round trip) to work. I can say that we really should move closer to where I work in order to save on gas. If we buy soda, chips, or candy it's only a dollar and it's not much.

Shan, thank you so much for the articals on tithing. I'm going to really research and pray about this because I know that "The love of money is the root of all evil". This may sound funny, but I've come to really hate it (Money) I don't like that this worlds system has taken this bibical, old testiment concept of "seed planting" and have used it to get rich. People take their money and put it into intrest barring acounts and, well, it grows. We give them (investors )100% of a dollar and they can give us only 4, 5, 7, or 10% back. Well, if you do the math, If I give you a dollar and you can promise me a steady 5 cents return, every year, I have one question for you. Where is my 95 cents!!!!???? The investor is living off on it!!! and I'm living on 5 cents!!!!!

Honestly, I hate mixing our loving God and money together because you can't serve two master's as Jesus has taught us. I know that this life will have trials and tribulations but honestly, I have to learn to see this worldy system as it is. I have to learn that If I don't have it, and I've honestly tried to pay it (bills, debts, tithes...or any money owed in general), then I just can't do it or pay it. But as a man, I am charged by God to take care of my household the best way I can. It's just that I don't have any pride, and well, sometimes a man really needs help. Pride get's puffed up and carries the "I message"

[mlg]

Hey musician, it's great to see ya again. I do pray that God gives you the best direction in your home and finances....and that you are willing to follow what He wills...as well as lead your wife in His will. I can relate to the OCD part with your wife, as I have a couple of nephews who suffer from it tremendously. No matter how "clean" something used can be, their mind does not allow them to accept that thought...I know my nephews have had to seek help for this, and it's helped a lot....not sure, but maybe your wife might need to seek some as well.

May God watch over and bless you and yours.

Take care