Christianity Oasis Forum

[vahn]

I really don't know where else to post this , but , here is as good as any other place , right ?

Maybe I should've rephrase the title of this post ... "Does theology devide the church " ? ... I personally believe it does . In fact , that is EXACTLY how I ended up looking elswhere and online for my Spiritual nourishment rather than physical churches , and consequently , and grratefuly so , was led here to Christianity Oasis .

We are told in 1st Corinthians , chapter 2 I belive it is , that , God's Truth is NOT "discovered" primarily by the human BRAIN , but rather by the human HEART , as revealed by the Holy Spirit .

My last "visit" to a physical church prior to my landing here , I was practically dismayed , to say the least , let alone confused , whether the , whoever it was , the man at the pulpit , was introducing me to satan or the Christ ! . I asked for a word with him , "if" he had the time . Being led to his office , I have to tell the truth , I was impressed by the "wall-paper" of his office , filled with diplomas , awards and recognitions "testifying" to his academic know-hows and achievements in theology , even a doctorate degree in theology !!! . Though that was NOT the reason of my asking him for his time , but , I was caught by surprise of the words that came out of my mouth ... "Are you SAVED ??" (now where did that come from I'm still scratching my head over it .) . Caught by surprise himself , asked me "What the reason behind questiong that ?" . My response was even more surprising to me than him when I said "You seem to have spent a LOT of time trying to "know" ABOUT God , why is that ? ... I mean , are you "checking" His credentials before deciding whether to worship Him or satan ? " .... Needless to say I was promptly and "very" politely shown the exit .

Where am I going with this ?

Ok , ok . Theology = Theo + ology , Theo - God . Ology - The study of . . Godology ???

The Scripture-versus-experience issue , in my opinion , is unfortunate , unbiblical , and illogical . Never in Scripture are the two held to be mutually exclusive . They are ALWAYS seen to be two sides of the same coin. God's written revelation IS the BIBLE . That written revelation is not given to us in an abstract theological form . It is given to us as God makes HIMSELF known to His people and to the world in the context of human EXPERIENCE (of Him) . ... A KNOWLEDGE of God , divorced from the experience of God led to Crusadism , and Inquisitionism and other chapters of the colonization of the "heathen" world by organized "Christianity" to shamefull for me even to come up with words .

Our Lord's desciples asked Him why is it that they could not drive out demons like He did ... His answer was , that this kind of cases required different type of PRAYERS ... Prayer = communion , communication with God ... Experiencing His presence ! How else one could talk to another unless the other is in front of him . Note : God does NOT have a cell-phone .

Given the choice of being "taught" by about God by a brilliant , highly trained theologian , or a semi-iliterate but Spirit-filled , I'll chose the iliterate sinner . While he may not be able to "define" God theologically , he can lead me (and he has) TO God from telling me of his EXPERIENCE with Him .


In Christ , our Lord
vahn

[Upward]

Experiences have their place but cannot be placed above scripture in forming doctrines and stated beliefs of the Church.We all have a "Theology"..the question is..is it based upon scripture.Is something Traditional Biblical Orthodox Christian teaching taught and believed for over 2,000 yrs...

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

When the apostles traveled to a city they stopped at the jewish community and preached and what did some of those Berens do?
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

They studied the scriptures..they didn't sit around going over each of their experiences at having heard the apostles preach..no..they went right to the scriptures to see if what the apostles were saying were of God..

I hear what your saying..those that..2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
A head knowledge without heart knowledge...but don't dismiss the learned saints of the past or those who spent their lives in study.Many great brothers in the Lord who were scholars and preachers.

Sin ,Legalism, bigotry, hatreds, unforgiving spirits , things apart and outside of Scripture, lead to Inquisitions,bible surpressions and burnings at the stake.

Remember the Bible does speak about the unlearned who try preach and witness the word of God but who fail at properly dividing the scripture...
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


Unstable unlearned sinners can lead you astray..Why? because its not based upon proper readings of the scriptures..
So have balance, don't write off either the sinners heartfelt experiences, which do have a value and the learned bornagain scholar...there is much to be gained by both.

And more importantly what the Scriptures teach trump all else even my experiences which can be a liar..just like feelings can be a liar so can experiences...Scripture is the Canon,or "Rod of measurement" by which we weigh and test doctrines beliefs and teachings..That which is biblical will be back up by the Holy Spirit..The Holy Spirit will confirm it with our spirit...

We have to be very very careful that we preach correctly things that are scriptual as not to take away or add to it..
Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

We must remain good students,diligent,growing in grace,feeding upon His word.Such a great welath of wisdom to be found from the writings of saints of the past..Giants like Newton Bunyon, Spurgeon,Matthew Henry..and many many more..These were Godly men and no reason why we cannot benefit from their travels along the pilgrims highway..

My experience has taught me that the only sure thing in my beliefs are those things found in Scripture Gods word..everything "can" lie...

anyhow hope my imputs helped a wee bit in your ongoing conversation on this topic..God bless...

[dema]

People are people. The greatest temptation, I believe, is to put self first. This takes so many forms. I was asked to leave a church also - I questioned the minister, and he had a monstrous ego. Ego, id.

Church is a place with a lot of attractions other than the worship of God or ministering to other believers. It has all the features of most other communities. And so you are going to get people who are attracted to the features and not the root.

There is a religion that to me appears to be so blatantly disproved that it should cease to exist. However, it not only flourishes, but has many very intelligent and highly educated members. This amazes me. I cannot comprehend how intelligent people can buy the bunkum. But they do. And, some of them have a true faith in God through Jesus Christ, in spite of the other bunkum being taught.

Where Jesus is taught, some are saved. Even when taught by false prophets that do not know him. That is in the Bible.

Expectations can really hurt us in so many ways. Or help. If we look for blessings in a place of worship, we can find a place of worship that will bless us. Not in every place of worship - but most have some measure of truth. And all see through a glass darkly. But we NEED other believers. We truly do.

[vahn]

I am in absolute agreement with both of you on all of the views as presented . In fact , it is my firm belief , that when Scripture is read or read to another and even spoken Scripture , the person's lives , both of the reader and the hearer is never the same again . Caution , NOT ALWAYS for the better , but change the life nevertheless .

My issue is NOT with ALL who are theologians . It would be absurd of me not to listen to the Word of God presented by a theologian just because they study God ! In fact I can learn a whole bunch from them , without having to follow their own interpretations .... my issue is NOT with the theologian who studies Scripture , I am talking about the theologian who "studies" God .
The given choice I mentioned , was of the choice between the believing (but "non-saved") theologian (with all his/her knowledge and thoelogical education) and the non-educated (theologically) but "saved" through experiencing God iliterate sinner .

I have heard of MANY (though not seen) great theologians who have experienced God through their "studies" , and yet turn around and denounce Him later , and also illiterate sinners saved by His Grace who turned theologians .

Ok , here . When one asks a simple yes/no question , there are ONLY three answers expected to be heard to gain validation - yes , no , and I don't know - now , when the person of said question directed to offers ANY answer at all .... THAT is the theologian I am talking about . The sad thing of all that is , the said theologian(s) , reach bigger masses , and the next thing you know whole communities spring up with total ignorance of our Scriptural God . One look at a Mormon , or the Jones culture , the list goes on , should write tomes of books about the subject .

Here . Abraham ... was a pagan , yet he experienced God . (and we all know too well of the result)

Moses ... I can safely call him the first theologian ever ... was banned to enter the Land because of his anger (ungodly) and retaliatory tendency .

The Pharisees , The Greatest theologians of their time (following through the Moses theology) ... Killed The Christ .

The third man crucified with our Lord ... Gets to SEE the Kingdom of our Father .

Paul ... the CHIEF sinner , EXPERIENCES God , because why ? It was God that made that choice FOR him . Paul did not choose God , he chose theology , and most ironic of the whole thing was that , without him even KNOWING , Paul was acting in total opposite of what his theological doctrine was asking ! "Thou shalt NOT murder" .

I am so glad of your responses , brother Upward and sister Dema .... hence we grow ... Iron sharpens iron .

Luv ya both
In Christ , our Lord
vahn

[Upward]

Amen i understand your points better and do agree..

All glory to the Lord.

man He is so gracious..blows me away....

[ServeGod]

Hi Vahn,
you wrote:

My response was even more surprising to me than him when I said "You seem to have spent a LOT of time trying to "know" ABOUT God , why is that ? ... I mean , are you "checking" His credentials before deciding whether to worship Him or satan ? " .... Needless to say I was promptly and "very" politely shown the exit .

Loved it.

[Maverick_Reborn]

I sorta ask the same question. I remember watching the news once, and I heard a story about how an expert on christianity proved that Jesus Christ was married. I was dumbfounded that someone actually thought that something like that would be hidden if it were true. I think all scientists try too hard to know everything, and try to prove things by using complex methods when they really don't have to. Sometimes people just have to accept the truth instead of proving other people wrong.