Christianity Oasis Forum

[vahn]

Among the many things that I find very hard to accept , one of them (and the most glaring) is the fact that when some of us , through none of our faults , we take someone's misrepresentation (because of their "standings") as being true . Now that is NOT a "bad" thing in itself , we all believe what we WANT to believe right ? , but when that misrepresentation starts to get passed on to the unknowing , well .... then it becomes a responsibility of our own to "correct" such interpretation (at least that is what I believe) . I mean , after all , when we see a blind man opening his eyes for the first time , and another pointing to a red car and telling the former blind , "that's a green car" , now , what does the blind man know to argue right ? And at the same time , he still has a choice to take the non-blind's word for it or get a second opinion . BUT ... However , when that blind man , upon meeting other blinds that their sights being restored for the first time , and pointing to same red car and saying it is a green car ... well then I must say something about that right ? ... I mean , even though he got the object he is pointing at being a car right , but , red and green part ... (those colours go on EVERYTHING .)

Upon my making a comment in chat the other day , that I don't associate with pagans and other idolaters and fundemental atheists that refuse to budge from their beliefs (At this point I would like to add a note that there IS a difference between these people and non-believers ok ?) - I was met with two responses , One , was an obviously geared toward a rather question , "How do we get to pass on the News if we didn't associate" but the other was the glaring one -redcar/greencar , car being the only truth which one cannot escape and it is only focused on ONE item , but colour changes the whole outlook upon life itself - I heard , "Jesus associated Himself with sinners" ... I almost fell off my chair !!
NO , that is a BIG N-O in my Book , He did NOT "associate" with sinners (show me the company you keep , I'll tell you who you are)

Here's my deduction (if it's worth anything to the ones that insist otherwise that is)
First and foremost , the term "Look at Him , He keeps tax-collectors and sinners for company" came from the PHARISEES , used in acuusation to discredit our Lord ... It was NOT a fact !

When our Lord PASSED BY Levi (Matt.) a tax-collector for the ROMANS BY TRADE , "considered" a sinner by the Pharisees' teachings (wrong info to begin with !) He told Levi , "Follow Me" , as in "Follow My WAY" , Levi dropped everything and followed -His Way - he STOPPED collecting taxes , he gave up his livelyhood , he didnt "collect" another penny ... in other words , He STOPPED being a tax-collector from that point on !

Another example , the Magdalene , she was rumored to be an adulteress and a prostitute , but ... Upon making a decission to Follow our Lord (His Way .... Well He IS the WAY [sowwy] ) , she had to FIRST , put the red-light out (or was it green ? )

In fact , when our Lord was questioned about paying taxes (to trick Him to say the "wrong" thing , His reply was , "Give Caesar what belongs to Caesar !" my interpretation on that ? ... "I dont have ANYTHING to do with that " !!

Just because one tries to help an old-lady cross the street does NOT make him an old-lady right ? In fact , in trying to do so she starts whacking your head head with her parasol (umbrella) , leave her there !!! (shake the dust off your garment and move on to the one who would be more willing to hear the News) .

YES , we DO and HAVE to stick our necks and go to places where we USED to hang out at , and risk being labaled as frequenters of such places , but keep in mind , our GOAL is NOT to "chill" with the boyz , but to get them OUT OF THERE , and that SHOULD be the extent of it .... Do a Phill Collins number , "Hello .. I must be going !"

Just a couple a words , that's all .


In Christ , our Lord

[mlg]

Hi Vahn,

I have a different view on what you have shared here.

First and foremost, it is my belief that we are all sinners until the day we shed this ol' flesh. Sinners saved by grace...yes but none the less sinners. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The definition of the word "associate" according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary is as follows: to join as a partner, friend, or companion

Now seeing as how I know I will continue to sin, even though I am a Christian and love Jesus with all my heart...I'm sad to say...I'm still a sinner. I can repent and be forgiven...but still a sinner. Jesus does associate with me as a friend, partner and companion. So I believe he does associate with sinners....I am a Christian of course who follows Him....but all Christians sin and will continue to do so as long as the enemy of our souls is wandering this earth to and fro. Does that mean Jesus leaves me? No way...I may leave Him to follow sin at times...but He never leaves nor forsakes us according to the Word. Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

I believe He is our friend forever if we love Him and accept Him. He knows we are going to sin...but He still loves us when we do.

Now another thought...if there are souls who refuse Jesus and turn away from Him...then they are the ones who are not allowing Him to associate with them. They refuse to join Him as a partner, friend or companion. Therefore I agree, that Jesus does not associate with them because He is refused entrance. Does it mean you can't witness to them? No way you can sure try...but if they refuse Jesus' association...then they are often leading a life of unrighteousness and we are warned of these souls in the book of Jude and how to approach them as well...please note the words used here "ungodly sinners"

Jude
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Thank God that He loves us so much to be our friend...it saddens my soul to know that there are those who do separate themselves from Him...and I will continue to have compassion on these souls in hopes to make a difference for Him.

Take care Vahn and God Bless you.

[unworthy]

The association with sinners is that He came into the world to save sinners; and because He has spoken, we have no more cloak for our sins. Christ Jesus association is exactly as you´ve said, "Follow me"; it is a voluntary association, just as if He were to tell us "Go and sin no more" (which in effect He does by telling us "Repent"), we must of our own selves choose to deny our own will, and submit voluntarily to His. As for Christ He keeps going after He has said to us "Follow me", then we either follow or we do not; there is no third option, or some other way to climb up.

[vahn]

Good to see you doing your rounds again .

Though I can see what you are saying , and yes I do agree on some points , but , however , like informer mentioned , if we were to refuse to repent and go about our old way of life , and still wanting to "follow" Him , I don't think He would want anything to do with me ....after all , He DID turn away the rich young man who went away in grief .

As you know , I am an alcoholic , and I DO and NEED to keep associating myself with other alcoholics , BUT , NONE of us drink .

In Christ , our Lord

[mlg]

Making my rounds? I'm here a lot more than most think...just at different hours than most think it was almost 2 AM last night when I was here...and just choose to keep my fingers from typing most of the time for reasons I shall keep to myself.

Now, may I ask you both something? If you refuse to repent of your sins...are you following the Lord...or are you one of those who has chosen to separate yourself from God as spoken of in Jude? I believe you are one who is choosing to separate yourself...therefore disassociating yourself with Him...and then it turn that makes me think of blasphemy...because turning from God and refusing to repent once you've known Him and never coming back...Yikes!

I don't believe God chooses the disassociation...He never would...man chooses the disassociation by choosing the sin over choosing the Godly path.

I love a healthy discussion...thank you both for sharing.

Take care

[vahn]

Yes of course ... God doesn't want ANY one to perish , and Jesus loves us ALL , sinners or non-sinners (if there are any such) , in fact He gave His life for the sinner to repent ... repent being the operative word ... but to the ones who didn't , He had nothing to do with them (pagans , idolaters and such) he even called them dogs and brood of vipers ... remember when He went to Tyre (pagan country) and for whatever reason , which is not given to us , He didn't want to be seen , but a Sidonian woman (next town over) came to ask Him , He called her a dog ? ... "One does not take the food from His children and give it to the dogs"

Again , alcoholicly speaking , some of us do slip-up and drink again , and ALL of us alkies go and try to pick him up , but , if he doesn't want to , or if he does not feel remorseful of his actions , we would not want anything to do with him ... and besides ... he KNOWS what to do .

Luv ya sis , and welcome back .
In Christ , our Lord

[xxJILLxx]

Hello family

I would like to add some thoughts if i may . In reference to 1 Corinthians 5.

If anyone is in Christ , he is a new creation. The old is gone, behold the new has come. Brand new, therefore the church is a company of brand new people. Therefore says Paul, you who are a brand new people, who say you are a follower after Christ, who say you are committed to the scriptures, who say you want to manifest spiritual gifts and be involved in evangelism .. he says you are unbelievable that you woud tolerate in the midst of that, the yeast that marked your preconversion experience. Whenever you and I find ourselves tolerating which is counter to the teaching of the scriptures then we call in question the reality and the vitality of our profession of repentance and faith.

Assurance and disobedience cannot go hand in hand. You cannot disobey the clear injunctions of the bible as an individual or as a church family and enjoy an assurance of faith. Nor shoulod we be able to.

Paul wrote a letter about not "associating" with sexually immoral people. Now he says you got ahold of the wrong end of the stick when i wrote that to you, you misunderstood me. And so he says i want to clear up the misunderstanding . I dont mean that the people of this world should be moved from our influence or from our sphere of friends Not at all he says meaning in verse 10 . People in this world are already idolaters, swindlers ect. He says in that case you would have to leave the world. Which Corinthians business man could get up in the morning and not associate with immoral people and do their business in Corinth? No Corinthian business man.


1 Corinthians 5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.


God bless
♥Jill

[mlg]

Hi ya'll it's me again making my rounds at a tad past midnight Vahn where are ya? Are ya sleeping? Your not suppose to sleep...Jill wake Vahn up! I'm teasing.

Anyway, just wanted to go back and reference something Vahn had mentioned about the rich man and Jesus "sending" him away. First, just wondering is this the chapter and verses you were referring to? If so Jesus sent him away to sell his possessions and then told him to come and follow Him. It was the rich man Himself in the next verse who went away sorrowful because He had great possessions that He didn't want to part with. Again making the choice to not follow Jesus. Not sure these are the right verses though...if not Vahn...please post the verses you were making reference to earlier.

Matthew 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

@Jill-in those verses you shared I notice the words...a man that calls himself a brother...which to me states that he is showing the signs of practicing religion and not Christianity...does that make sense? Also, another thing I noticed in these verses is that Paul lists specific sins...especially sexual sin...instead of saying sinners in general...have any thoughts to share as to why Paul chose specific sins? Cuz you'd think he'd have listed all sins...cuz I have always believed that God judges all sins the same...but according to these verses makes one ponder why just these were chosen.

Also in those same verses I want to add these last 2 to finish from I Corinthians 5:12-13
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Here Paul states to put away those without God...but if this man is calling himself a brother...and is without God as mentioned in verse 13 He has denied God and is posing as a "Christian" . God is saying to put him away because he is a harm to the sheep...but from reading these verses I believe the man has chosen not to associate with God and is in fact denouncing God with his actions of saying one thing and portraying another...I believe this is why God is asking for the man to be put away...to protect the soul from a "false" witness...because here he says to judge those without God.

Looking forward to hearing ya'lls thoughts on my questions.

God Bless ya'll and P. S. it's almost 1 AM...wake up Vahn!

[vahn]

Ok , .. now that I'm awake ... who woke me anyway ??


Let us , seat a group of say , 4 to 6 people at a round table , then , place this huge globe at the centre of the table , and proceed to ask , each one seated , in turn , what is it that they see in front of them ... keep in mind the globe is huge ... would I be correct if I were to say the one would say I see Australia , the other , the Americas , yet the next China and one of them may even say , I see nothing but ocean !!! so on and so forth ... but .. isn't it the truth that they are ALL looking at the SAME GLOBE ?

Going back to the "original" post . "Association with tax-collectors and sinners" .

Please allow me at this point to interject a couple of other warnings by our Lord to His desciples and us . "YEAST" ! ...Luke 13 : 21 "Even though we add only a [i]little yeast to three measures of flour , it permeates every part of the dough"

Matt. 16 : 5 + " ... When they had come to the otherside (the lake) , they realised they hadn't brought food (bread) , on their way to the market to buy bread ( association with non-followers-Jews) . The Lord tells them 'beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and the Saduccees .... " .
Yes , by the way , this is the same Matthew - the FORMER tax-collector writing this .

The point .

Our Lord's so-called association with tax-collectors and sinners , is A TERM THE PHARISEES COINED and USED , in an attempt to DOWNGRADE Him , that us Christians use today as if it was some sort of a Glorification of our Lord , all the while , and yes , true , unknowingly we are using a term that was meant to discredit Him (The yeast of the Pharisees -- a little yeast that permeates the whole batch-) .
The desciples were NOT Christians YET at THAT time , they were mere Followers of our Lord and His Teachings , they were not to be called Christians until some 70 years AFTER His Departure from us , in Antioch . (Just thought I throw that in there)

It is just an observation on my part that I wish to share here , and it is NOT by any means for me to say "Hey we all got it wrong guys" ... Although I DO stand behind my opinion that our Lord has NOTHING to do with ANY sinner who , after turning his life over to His care and turns around and does an about-face and continue to live his former life when away from church , and comes to church and say Glory is Your Name , in my book it says , "you are using my Lord's Name in vain"

You are either cold or hot , I love you regardless , but when you get to act luke warm (double-faced) I will spit you out .



In Christ , our Lord

[xxJILLxx]

Hello again family,

@Mlg I think the verses in Corinthians were talking about "Christians doin Him a lipservice but that was the extent of it, No heart service, if you catch my drift. Not as much as religion per say but hypocracy. UNcircumsized hearts if you will.

I also think Paul brought up those specific sins because these were the sins that they were holding onto in Corinth. They were ruled by the romans and influenced by the greeks with their many gods and paganistic views. The first Epistle reflects the difficulties of maintaining a Christian community in such a cosmopolitan city. So i believe that is why he addressed those sins to those in Corinth.


@vahn,
Wow only thing i got to say is a big Amen. Never looked at it from that position, ty for that! Will have to chew on that a bit more, lots to ponder on.

God bless us all
♥Jill

[mlg]

Pssst! Vahn! hey are you awake?

Vahn shared:

Although I DO stand behind my opinion that our Lord has NOTHING to do with ANY sinner who , after turning his life over to His care and turns around and does an about-face and continue to live his former life when away from church , and comes to church and say Glory is Your Name , in my book it says , "you are using my Lord's Name in vain"

I often question if a soul such as this is a blasphemer or a soul that never knew Jesus from the get go and is just offering lip service as Jill shared. Something else to ponder as well.

@Jill...I agree with your thoughts shared on the specific sins mentioned...Paul was pointing out their own iniquities.

Just to mention here...our preacher at church yesterday preached on sin...but from the prospective of Saul, and David. But it really tied in with what we are all sharing here. Such good stuff.

Goodnight and GB each of you.

[Gods Sheep]

I am just throwing my 2 cents in here and compared to the 3 page documents written here mine is only going to be worthy maybe 2 cents if that. I absolutely and totally agree with mig. I don't want to write out a long comment and my view points so I will leave it at that. God Bless you all