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Number Four
by saint701 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:12 pm
by saint701 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:33 pm, Concerning Greek Orthodox Churches, 10 Replies, 602 Views, Last post by saint701 Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:38 pm
Concerning Greek Orthodox Churches
by saint701 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:33 pm
Hello All,
Blessings!
We thank God for your recognition of our Heavenly Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God, that you take comfort in finding Him in various rituals and services such as preaching the gospel and becoming partaker of Him through the Holy Eucharist. Having read several of your doctrines and tenets we can only say that we find Christ in you, and even though we have our life in the Trinity outside your traditions and services, we love you deeply as he that is born of God loves his brothers and sisters that are also of the household of God. We find your expression of love toward God to be as to one another beautiful and able to be experienced through your words as you have written them. Your very words have in them the essence of love. Through them we understand that the Holy Spirit bears witness to you, that you are begotten of God, because you love.
Nevertheless, we are somewhat perplexed that your tradition seems to be given greater credence than the Bible itself, and ritual given more credence than the actual experience of Christ within, and hold this to be true, that the exact essence of His being is to be known by all. To that we disagree, and do testify that Christ within is to be known even as the Apostle John said, we have the witness within ourselves in that He has given us of His Spirit.
Moreover, how can one know God is love, unless he has experienced His very essence? As the Apostle Paul said, the love of God is spread abroad in our heart by The Holy Spirit. Therefore we do pray that the essence of God in the person and work of the Holy Spirit overshadow you, and that you discover through that knowledge of Him that He is the very essence of love, and the embodiment of it. As those of the Apostle John in his day knew the Father, so the Father wishes to be known by His sons and daughters today.
Blessings!
Love, In Christ Jesus, Saint701.
It is most certainly far better to die in faith believing, than it is to live in unbelief.
saint701 Posts: 528Location: St. Louis, MOMarital Status: Waiting on God
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Re: Concerning Greek Orthodox Churches
by Guest » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:35 pm
saint701 wrote:Hello All,
Blessings!
We thank God for your recognition of our Heavenly Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God, that you take comfort in finding Him in various rituals and services such as preaching the gospel and becoming partaker of Him through the Holy Eucharist. Having read several of your doctrines and tenets we can only say that we find Christ in you, and even though we have our life in the Trinity outside your traditions and services, we love you deeply as he that is born of God loves his brothers and sisters that are also of the household of God. We find your expression of love toward God to be as to one another beautiful and able to be experienced through your words as you have written them. Your very words have in them the essence of love. Through them we understand that the Holy Spirit bears witness to you, that you are begotten of God, because you love.
Nevertheless, we are somewhat perplexed that your tradition seems to be given greater credence than the Bible itself, and ritual given more credence than the actual experience of Christ within, and hold this to be true, that the exact essence of His being is to be known by all. To that we disagree, and do testify that Christ within is to be known even as the Apostle John said, we have the witness within ourselves in that He has given us of His Spirit.
Moreover, how can one know God is love, unless he has experienced His very essence? As the Apostle Paul said, the love of God is spread abroad in our heart by The Holy Spirit. Therefore we do pray that the essence of God in the person and work of the Holy Spirit overshadow you, and that you discover through that knowledge of Him that He is the very essence of love, and the embodiment of it. As those of the Apostle John in his day knew the Father, so the Father wishes to be known by His sons and daughters today.
Blessings!
Love, In Christ Jesus, Saint701.
Dear Saint701, You are considerably more charitable and kind toward Orthodox Christians than some Evangelicals are. Robert A. Morey's book "Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?" betrays a Protestant hatred or at best disgust for the holy Orthodox traditions and truths. All Christians have the Spirit of Christ, and Christ can save anybody He wants to, regardless of denomination or "church tradition". But your perplexity about Greek Orthodoxy holding to "tradition" allegedly "more than the Bible" is a common misperception. Actually, everybody reads the Bible according to some tradition of Christian theology. To the degree they come from "the Spirit of truth" (John 15:26), they are all Christian. To the extent that they disagree with the intended meaning of the original authors of the Bible, they fall into false doctrine or even terrible heresies of some kinds.
Actually, Protestantism follows traditions that come from men no earlier than John Wycliffe in England at the earliest. To the extent this comes from just one individual's thinking, it is "the tradition of men", and not of the passed-down traditions from the 12 apostles of Christ and St. Paul, St. Barnabas, St. Timothy, etc. Certainly the West is by-and-large following its own self-inspired Augustinian traditions in its acceptance and endorsement and INSISTENCE upon "FILIOQUE" ("and the Son").
Perhaps you would benefit greatly by studying John 15:26 to see that the Holy Spirit "proceedeth from the Father", and this is what distinguished Eastern Orthodoxy from non-Orthodox theology. The Orthodox Church teaches this Gospel passage without false interpretation, and is The Truth from God (John 16:13) the Holy Spirit, Who guides into all truth of Christian theology. God bless you. God save us all because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ our LORD GOD and Saviour upon His Cross, and His glorious resurrection from the dead on the Third Day. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
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Hello Scott
by saint701 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:34 pm
Blessings!
Nice to meet you!
First, I studied the doctrines of the Greek Orthodox churches. They, not I, stated that they hold tradition above scripture. I personally have no tradition of understanding that you say all do, as my understanding of scripture has come to me directly from the Holy Ghost.
Also, according to their tradition, their Apostolic platform is the Apostle's Creed, again, tradition gathered by a committee of men.
Regarding the Holy Spirit and His gifts to us, the Orthodox do recognize such, but equate natural endowments with the supernatural.
The Spirit of Truth, which proceeds directly from the Father, who it was expedient for Jesus to die for us in so doing to send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, to come to us is hardly an area I lack understanding in. Jesus sent Him to us to lead us into all understanding, even to the point of not needing a man to teach us because He would lead us into all understanding.
Do I need to study these wonderful truths concerning the Holy Spirit? I do truly live their reality in my life on a daily basis, having been gifted with the the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of my Heavenly Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Lord God Almighty Love Dad.
That I was oh so kind to the Greek Orthodox in my first paragraph was in no way the natural me. That was the love of God within and withon hovering over every word given me to write, the second paragraph a plea for those like you to come to a real experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit. I know Him in His true essence, have bathed in that essence, and wrote in that essence about the Eastern Orthodoxy. I was fulfilling the law of His love to the orthodox, but not I, for only Christ within us can keep the law of love He demands of us.
I respect the fact that you are a scholar interpreting the writings of various denominations, yourself leaning toward orthodoxy, but in no way do I think of myself as a protestant, but a rebel against all of the half truths, false doctrines, and heresies that have brought upon this nation and the world a religious apostasy so dark and heinous that most, and I mean MOST churches no matter what their claim or denomination have become shrouds of darkness and a habitation for doctrines of demons to flourish.
To me, Christianity Oasis is a refreshing pool of pure spring water to those that thirst for only truth and righteousness in the sound doctrine of the Bible as revealed by our Lord's Spirit to His Holy Prophets and Apostles. That same Spirit now flourishes in us because we seek only His teaching to guide us. And that Spirit witnesses to everything the Apostles taught, and teaches us the same, even leading us to experience those things true of believers in their day.
I think of myself as a believer, one whose spirit looks into the things of the Holy Spirit to find the truths hidden in Christ. The Holy Spirit receives from the Lord Jesus and shows those things to my spirit who reveals them to my understanding. Such is called divine revelation as with Paul, or enlightenment.
No, I don't know everything, but I know enough of our Lord's teaching to stand my ground on His word and do it, not just talk about it. In His presence I do what He wills. He wills we love one another.
The other thing I know is my place in the true body of Christ Jesus on this Earth scattered among all men and women everywhere. I sew seeds of Christ centered truth. That's my place in Him, has nothing to do with any denomination, and as He has taught me I do and I abide in Him.
I have no personal agenda of my own here. My claim to fame is found only in my sufferings. I have no secret desires or ambitions in this Oasis but to share what I'm given to share by that which is not flesh and blood. I am thankful for my sufferings in Him. I am thankful I have found grace in His sight to be of service to Him. I love Him for those sufferings He has led me through, as now He treats me as His one of His sons.
Would that more would listen and find Him while he may be found.
Blessings!
Love you Scott, but don't hit me with that you should study such and such a scripture, as I'm all stocked up on it living in the life of the one that breathed on the Apostle John to write it, and I live in Him more and more every day.
It is most certainly far better to die in faith believing, than it is to live in unbelief.
saint701 Posts: 528Location: St. Louis, MOMarital Status: Waiting on God
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by dema » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:41 am
Luke 9:49-50 (King James Version)
49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
There is another reference where disciples are told to let the gospel be taught no matter who is teaching it.
My ex-preacher taught about Jehovah's witnesses in one sermon and about Mormon's in another. I asked why in the world would he do that on Sunday morning. His response was that there had been questions and that he didn't want his flock to be deceived.
I have personally known people from all these faiths - known them well enough to have conversations about their religions. And the fact is that all of them preach Jesus. And that where Jesus is preached, some will be saved.
And, I would be very, very careful about knocking something that involves God's children.
I agree that there is a lot of hoopla in a lot of religions. Some people need the hoopla.
I don't need to be on a different fast every week to remember that I am a Christian. I can worship sitting down - standing for two hours doesn't excite me at all. But, I am not going to knock the people who feel that they need this in order to prove their love for God.
Power corrupts. In any organization where there is authority, power and recognition there will be corruption. Pharisees are not extinct.
But there are many little sheep in all these places who love the Lord. And if you want to get them to a place of being better nourished, being angry is not the way to do it.
And these people are children in the Biblical sense. And it would be better for someone to tie a millstone around his neck and to jump into the lake than to offend one of these.
I agree Oasis is a refreshing place. I left the church that preached against the other religions shortly after that. I am saddened by much of what goes on in certain religions. I am saddened by those who believe some of these things, and even more saddened by those who cannot believe and yet feel trapped by family and culture in these religions.
I have also known Moslems and the cultural loss from conversion would be more than we are likely to be able to imagine.
We don't have to leave family and friends and our reputation when we become Christians. I don't know that we really understand the consequences of this.
In all of these religions, there have been people I loved and also people who truly love God. In most of them, I have known people who truly love Jesus.
We should be very careful in how we trod in this area.
dema Posts: 555Location: IndianaMarital Status: Engaged
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Re: Hello Scott
by Guest » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:58 am
saint701 wrote:*AngelYellow*
Blessings!
Nice to meet you!
First, I studied the doctrines of the Greek Orthodox churches. They, not I, stated that they hold tradition above scripture. I personally have no tradition of understanding that you say all do, as my understanding of scripture has come to me directly from the Holy Ghost.
Also, according to their tradition, their Apostolic platform is the Apostle's Creed, again, tradition gathered by a committee of men.
Regarding the Holy Spirit and His gifts to us, the Orthodox do recognize such, but equate natural endowments with the supernatural.
The Spirit of Truth, which proceeds directly from the Father, who it was expedient for Jesus to die for us in so doing to send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, to come to us is hardly an area I lack understanding in. Jesus sent Him to us to lead us into all understanding, even to the point of not needing a man to teach us because He would lead us into all understanding.
Do I need to study these wonderful truths concerning the Holy Spirit? I do truly live their reality in my life on a daily basis, having been gifted with the the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of my Heavenly Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Lord God Almighty Love Dad.
That I was oh so kind to the Greek Orthodox in my first paragraph was in no way the natural me. That was the love of God within and withon hovering over every word given me to write, the second paragraph a plea for those like you to come to a real experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit. I know Him in His true essence, have bathed in that essence, and wrote in that essence about the Eastern Orthodoxy. I was fulfilling the law of His love to the orthodox, but not I, for only Christ within us can keep the law of love He demands of us.
I respect the fact that you are a scholar interpreting the writings of various denominations, yourself leaning toward orthodoxy, but in no way do I think of myself as a protestant, but a rebel against all of the half truths, false doctrines, and heresies that have brought upon this nation and the world a religious apostasy so dark and heinous that most, and I mean MOST churches no matter what their claim or denomination have become shrouds of darkness and a habitation for doctrines of demons to flourish.
To me, Christianity Oasis is a refreshing pool of pure spring water to those that thirst for only truth and righteousness in the sound doctrine of the Bible as revealed by our Lord's Spirit to His Holy Prophets and Apostles. That same Spirit now flourishes in us because we seek only His teaching to guide us. And that Spirit witnesses to everything the Apostles taught, and teaches us the same, even leading us to experience those things true of believers in their day.
I think of myself as a believer, one whose spirit looks into the things of the Holy Spirit to find the truths hidden in Christ. The Holy Spirit receives from the Lord Jesus and shows those things to my spirit who reveals them to my understanding. Such is called divine revelation as with Paul, or enlightenment.
No, I don't know everything, but I know enough of our Lord's teaching to stand my ground on His word and do it, not just talk about it. In His presence I do what He wills. He wills we love one another.
The other thing I know is my place in the true body of Christ Jesus on this Earth scattered among all men and women everywhere. I sew seeds of Christ centered truth. That's my place in Him, has nothing to do with any denomination, and as He has taught me I do and I abide in Him.
I have no personal agenda of my own here. My claim to fame is found only in my sufferings. I have no secret desires or ambitions in this Oasis but to share what I'm given to share by that which is not flesh and blood. I am thankful for my sufferings in Him. I am thankful I have found grace in His sight to be of service to Him. I love Him for those sufferings He has led me through, as now He treats me as His one of His sons.
Would that more would listen and find Him while he may be found.
Blessings!
Love you Scott, but don't hit me with that you should study such and such a scripture, as I'm all stocked up on it living in the life of the one that breathed on the Apostle John to write it, and I live in Him more and more every day.
Dear Saint701, The Greek Orthodox Church would also claim that Church tradition comes directly from the Holy Spirit. Though I am not sure what the directly means in any case. You use the term "Holy Ghost", but that is a mistranslation based on the KJV. It should always be "Spirit" and not "Ghost". Anyway, you seem to think you have no intermediary. Actually, this is impossible. If a person receives their teaching "direct from the Spirit", one is still receiving teachings personally, and it is always possible for a person to be mistaken. If one sets oneself up as the source of all tradition, one ignores the other Scriptures in the Bible that speak of the Body of Christ. We are to be members of one another, not in isolation. As it is, that is precisely what is a problem in the West today. When we get different teachings on what the Bible means, it is our own fault as individuals, and that is all.
But it is impossible to read the Bible without some opinion creeping in.
And one can always learn more of what the Bible teaches. No one of us is incapable of error.
I believe people have a mistaken view of the Greek Orthodox Church.
They also go astray with "sola Scriptura" (by "the Bible alone"). Everything the GOC believes comes from the Bible, but not from the Bible alone. It is impossible to know how to administer communion and baptism using "the Bible alone", because the Bible does not say "how".
There are many things the Bible is silent on, and for filling up this silence with God's truth, we need God's Tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15).
I would suggest you read 2 Thessalonians 2:15 if you think everything a Christian believes is written only in Scripture and is only written, not oral or by word. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
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Re: Hello Scott
by Guest » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:04 am
saint701 wrote:*AngelYellow*
Blessings!
Nice to meet you!
First, I studied the doctrines of the Greek Orthodox churches. They, not I, stated that they hold tradition above scripture. I personally have no tradition of understanding that you say all do, as my understanding of scripture has come to me directly from the Holy Ghost.
Also, according to their tradition, their Apostolic platform is the Apostle's Creed, again, tradition gathered by a committee of men.
Regarding the Holy Spirit and His gifts to us, the Orthodox do recognize such, but equate natural endowments with the supernatural.
The Spirit of Truth, which proceeds directly from the Father, who it was expedient for Jesus to die for us in so doing to send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, to come to us is hardly an area I lack understanding in. Jesus sent Him to us to lead us into all understanding, even to the point of not needing a man to teach us because He would lead us into all understanding.
Do I need to study these wonderful truths concerning the Holy Spirit? I do truly live their reality in my life on a daily basis, having been gifted with the the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of my Heavenly Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Lord God Almighty Love Dad.
That I was oh so kind to the Greek Orthodox in my first paragraph was in no way the natural me. That was the love of God within and withon hovering over every word given me to write, the second paragraph a plea for those like you to come to a real experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit. I know Him in His true essence, have bathed in that essence, and wrote in that essence about the Eastern Orthodoxy. I was fulfilling the law of His love to the orthodox, but not I, for only Christ within us can keep the law of love He demands of us.
I respect the fact that you are a scholar interpreting the writings of various denominations, yourself leaning toward orthodoxy, but in no way do I think of myself as a protestant, but a rebel against all of the half truths, false doctrines, and heresies that have brought upon this nation and the world a religious apostasy so dark and heinous that most, and I mean MOST churches no matter what their claim or denomination have become shrouds of darkness and a habitation for doctrines of demons to flourish.
To me, Christianity Oasis is a refreshing pool of pure spring water to those that thirst for only truth and righteousness in the sound doctrine of the Bible as revealed by our Lord's Spirit to His Holy Prophets and Apostles. That same Spirit now flourishes in us because we seek only His teaching to guide us. And that Spirit witnesses to everything the Apostles taught, and teaches us the same, even leading us to experience those things true of believers in their day.
I think of myself as a believer, one whose spirit looks into the things of the Holy Spirit to find the truths hidden in Christ. The Holy Spirit receives from the Lord Jesus and shows those things to my spirit who reveals them to my understanding. Such is called divine revelation as with Paul, or enlightenment.
No, I don't know everything, but I know enough of our Lord's teaching to stand my ground on His word and do it, not just talk about it. In His presence I do what He wills. He wills we love one another.
The other thing I know is my place in the true body of Christ Jesus on this Earth scattered among all men and women everywhere. I sew seeds of Christ centered truth. That's my place in Him, has nothing to do with any denomination, and as He has taught me I do and I abide in Him.
I have no personal agenda of my own here. My claim to fame is found only in my sufferings. I have no secret desires or ambitions in this Oasis but to share what I'm given to share by that which is not flesh and blood. I am thankful for my sufferings in Him. I am thankful I have found grace in His sight to be of service to Him. I love Him for those sufferings He has led me through, as now He treats me as His one of His sons.
Would that more would listen and find Him while he may be found.
Blessings!
Love you Scott, but don't hit me with that you should study such and such a scripture, as I'm all stocked up on it living in the life of the one that breathed on the Apostle John to write it, and I live in Him more and more every day.
Dear Saint701, It is misleading to state that the GOC holds tradition "above" Scripture. Scripture is written tradition; Church tradition is both written and unwritten (oral). Both Scripture and tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:25) come from God. According to St. Paul in Thessalonians, some tradition is by word, and not written. What is "the pillar and ground of the truth" is not Scripture in isolation from history in the private libraries and private teachings of Christian individuals. The truth comes in Christian community. It is individuals who sometimes distort the Scripture. Christ spoke to all His apostles, not just to St. Peter.
One inevitably, if one rejects Church tradition, will make a tradition of one's own. If one thinks one's tradition comes directly from God, from the Holy Spirit, how does one know that? One needs other Christians to verify whether or not one has heard from God. I am sure God can and does speak to individual hearts. But our life was not intended by Christ to remain in isolation. We need each other, we need other believers. Even more than we need this forum, we need our local churches and Christian community in the local areas.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
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Hello Scott
by saint701 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:43 pm
Good morning to you! May the Lord bless you, keep you, and make His countenance to shine upon you this day.
Blessings!
Well Scott, since we insist on batting tradition back and forth across the net, we might as well enjoy the game, as no one will stand or fall based upon our separate perspectives.
The revelation of God came directly from God by the Holy Spirit to St. Paul who then orally and in writing preached it among the gentiles, establishing churches wherever his revelation was received.
The word tradition in Greek, (paradosis), can also be translated as an ordinance, or law for Paul's people to follow. In the context of 2 Thes. 2:25, the ordinance in question was orderly, as in how Paul walked among them, as apposed to disordily, which is how some of the Thessalonians were walking. Many times in Paul's writings he warned of the dangers inherent in walking in this life according to the flesh rather than after the Spirit. Such minor ordinances stem from our Lord's commandment to love one an other.
In all cases by "Paul's" gospel, (special revelation from the Holy Spirit revealed only to him and not to the rest of the Apostles, Peter saying of Paul's revelation, some things difficult to understand. Such nullifies your argument that one can't receive revelation directly from the Holy Spirit, establishing a tradition of their own. Such is not a tradition, but instructioin from God. If I, who also am a part of a church body here in St. Louis, received divine revelaltion and it did not line up exactly with the teachings of the New Testament writings, I, myself would be deceiving those on here and elsewhere I write to. But I preach Jesus, Him crucified and resurrected, the first born from the dead, the sender of the Holy Spirit, who should be the teacher of all, thus desoving the traditions of all denominations so the harmony that exists in the Truth of God could be alive in all His body on this Earth.
Even where I attend church there are many that hold more to historical accounts of faith in God pieced together under the Emperor Constantine in the early 3rd century. The leaders of my congregation say that which was know by the Apostles seems to have passed away, and are not part of our experiences anymore.
I don't argue with them, or shout out such to be nonsense as what the Apostles wrote in terms of common experiences back then are alive in me and many others today. If I should speak up, I would be out of harmony with the doctrine they have boxed themselves in to. My purpose there is to worship God, not cause discord. If one believes he cannot recieve revelation, understanding, and wisdom directly from the Lord, then he will not.
You see, that is the problem with tradition, it boxes churches in to a certain set of doctrines out of harmony with what should be the common spiritual experiences of all Christians.
If what I receive directly from the Lord lines up with the gospels and the epistles, and is further verified by experience that agrees with the aforementioned being witnessed to by the Holy Spirit, what need do I have to submit the grace that I have been given to earthly authorities for verification, seeing He that has verified what has been given to me is the Holy Spirit. Who is the greater witness? Should my spirit cry, "abba, father" being the Holy Spirit witnessing with my spirit that I have become a child of God be submitted before an earthly committee for verification? Who, besides the person receiving that experiential revelation could testify such has happened in His life? What other man or church can verify what has been given to me separately, not by tradition but Bible fact verified in the Word of God, and attested to by the Holy Spirit.
The truth is that traditions held by many denominations much more resemble traditions of the pharisees and saducees of the Lord's day. Of their tradition, Jesus said all of the following.
Matt.15
1.[2] Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
2.[3] But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
3.[6] And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mark.7
1.[3] For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
2.[5] Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
3.[8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
4.[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
5.[13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Gal.1
1.[14] And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Col.2
1.[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
That our Lord Jesus has set me apart for His purpose, what is that to you? It is a light thing for me to be judged by men, for it is the justification of God that I walk in the light of, and my righteousness is of Him.
Blessings!
Love, In Christ Jesus, Saint701.
It is most certainly far better to die in faith believing, than it is to live in unbelief.
saint701 Posts: 528Location: St. Louis, MOMarital Status: Waiting on God
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My Dearest Deema..
by saint701 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:12 pm
Hi Deema,
Blessings!
One has no need to fear that he is offending our Lord's little ones if one is preaching to adults. Do you remember the churches our Lord had the Apostle John write to in the first portion of the Book of Revelation? Do you remember in the many writings of Paul how he disputed teachings even with the Apostle Peter, and how Paul continually admonished churches he had founded to stop walking one way and get on the correct path?
It seems that you either passed over my first reply to Scott about the presence of the Holy Spirit in the essence of His perfect love did wrap Himself around me as I was directed to write about the GOC? Where is the anger? Just because one stands his ground on the Word of God should not be misconstrued as anger. Love also admonishes and corrects, and what true child of God has not received His rod of correction?
Blessings!
Love ya, Den.
Anger doesn't have to be a part of every arguement.
It is most certainly far better to die in faith believing, than it is to live in unbelief.
saint701 Posts: 528Location: St. Louis, MOMarital Status: Waiting on God
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Re: Hello Scott
by dema » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:09 pm
saint701 wrote:*AngelYellow*
Blessings!
I respect the fact that you are a scholar interpreting the writings of various denominations, yourself leaning toward orthodoxy, but in no way do I think of myself as a protestant, but a rebel against all of the half truths, false doctrines, and heresies that have brought upon this nation and the world a religious apostasy so dark and heinous that most, and I mean MOST churches no matter what their claim or denomination have become shrouds of darkness and a habitation for doctrines of demons to flourish.
To me, Christianity Oasis is a refreshing pool of pure spring water to those that thirst for only truth and righteousness in the sound doctrine of the Bible as revealed by our Lord's Spirit to His Holy Prophets and Apostles. That same Spirit now flourishes in us because we seek only His teaching to guide us. And that Spirit witnesses to everything the Apostles taught, and teaches us the same, even leading us to experience those things true of believers in their day.
The first paragraph above is why I thought there was anger involved.
The second of the paragraphs I selected above is one reason to like Christianity Oasis - and I very much do. I have lived a spiritual life of never completely agreeing with anyone, but have found it most expedient to focus on the agreements and let disagreements go unless they were part of a specific problem that was either involving me or presented to me for a solution. And yet here, I have found virtually nothing with which to disagree, and where I have questioned a statement I found questionable, I have received a thoughtful response.
The seond reason that I really, really like Christianity Oasis is actually my first reason. There is love without judgement here. There is no knocking of other religions or of people for reasons that might be construed as being doctrinely valid.
Your discussion is apparently an intellectual debate of sorts. More exploration of ideas than rancor. Part of me says, "And what does that hurt?" Part of me says, that there is still disparagement of a Christian group. The Greek Orthodox religion does include devout people who absolutely believe that Jesus is the Son of God and their personal Lord and who believe that God raised him from the dead. These people are saved and at least some of them are being fed from this source. I have personally known a number of them.
Is your debate part of a solution?
Does it belong here where such hypersensitive people as myself can stumble over it and be offended? I admit to hypersensitivity in this area. And since I know that I am heavily biased, I cannot answer my own questions.
You say that you were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write. I cannot vouch for your inspiration. I know when the Holy Spirit inspires me and while I cannot tell you that I am being inspired right now, again because of my bias, I can tell you that I have prayed and listened and given the Holy Spirit the chance to restrain me and I have not received any such restraint, instead I have a sense of peace in writing this.
This Oasis is a refuge. A safe place. A place where seeking people of all brands and labels should be able to be fed without prejudice. If I was Greek Orthodox and saw my church on the main page in a forum topic, I would go there. And while your discussion is heavily intellectual, I think that I would be disparaged.
Perhaps this discussion should be in PM? This is a suggestion - I have no authority here.
As I mentioned, I am very sensitive about the possibility of disparagement of anyone who is seeking, particularly a new believer. I am very tired of Pharisees in churches of all sizes and descriptions. The Bible says "Judge Not" constantly and defines the contexts broadly and definitely and yet Christianity has alienated millions with a judgemental attitude that directly defies these Biblical edicts.
And I do not agree that new Christians are not to be treated as children. I understand your statement and Bible references, but I do not agree with the contextual interpretation.
Your conversation reminds me of that on ASA - American Scientific Affiliation. The American is a misnomer. The membership is international.
I like ASA - though I no longer participate. It has restricted membership - must be a scientist and a Christian to join. It is a great place for such discussions. Quite different than this refuge for hurting people.
My opinions are my opinions - if they are considered and weighed, then I consider them to have done their job, whether or not the advice is taken. No hard feelings whichever way you go. Thank you for your previsous response.
dema Posts: 555Location: IndianaMarital Status: Engaged
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by Christianity Oasis » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:25 pm
Uh huh ...
Amen Dema and most souls feel the same way.
We had several complaints about these posts.
I dunno about the rest of ya, but I have been calling the entity which is God's Spirit by the names of Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost for two decades now in Studies, Programs, Prayer and communion and have not had HIM correct me.
I am thinking HE judges by the HEART and SPIRIT in man's words and heart ... NOT the letter.
Thinking I will let GOD be my judge and not ... The likes of man and his wisdom.
Carry on brother Saint701
Luv ya bro
Jesus is coming ... Get your soul prepared.
Christianity Oasis Posts: 289Location: Path to HeavenMarital Status: Single
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Which matter carries the most weight?
by saint701 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:38 pm
Hello Deema,
Blessings!
Let's review. Here is the bombshell I dropped on C.O. a couple of weeks ago concerning E.O.C's. I will begin with the first paragraph breaking it down into its roots in love and commendation.
Paragraph 1.
We thank God for your recognition of our Heavenly Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God, that you take comfort in finding Him in various rituals and services such as preaching the gospel and becoming partaker of Him through the Holy Eucharist.
Having read several of your doctrines and tenets we can only say that we find Christ in you, and even though we have our life in the Trinity outside your traditions and services, we love you deeply as he that is born of God loves his brothers and sisters that are also of the household of God.
We find your expression of love toward God to be as to one another beautiful and able to be experienced through your words as you have written them.
Your very words have in them the essence of love. Through them we understand that the Holy Spirit bears witness to you, that you are begotten of God, because you love.
Paragraph 2
Nevertheless, we are somewhat perplexed that your tradition seems to be given greater credence than the Bible itself, and ritual given more credence than the actual experience of Christ within, and hold this to be true, that the exact essence of His being is to be known by all.
(This paragraph was written in response to the E.O.C.'s claim that our Lord Himself could only be experienced within the E.O.C. and its rituals, that our Lord's true essence cannot be known by anyone on this planet).
To that we disagree, and do testify that Christ within is to be known even as the Apostle John said, we have the witness within ourselves in that He has given us of His Spirit.
(In this phrase I simply stated that such a claim that Christ can only be experienced through the E.O.C. and the E.O.C. rituals was not in harmony with the teaching of the Apostle John, and I have found the witness of the Apostle John to be true within myself).
Paragraph 3.
Moreover, how can one know God is love, unless he has experienced His very essence? As the Apostle Paul said, the love of God is spread abroad in our heart by The Holy Spirit. Therefore we do pray that the essence of God in the person and work of the Holy Spirit overshadow you, and that you discover through that knowledge of Him that He is the very essence of love, and the embodiment of it. His essence should be known by all His children. As those of the Apostle John in his day knew the Father, so the Father wishes to be known by His sons and daughters today.
Simply put, our Lord desires us to know Him personally. He wants us to know that He prefers we find Him above and beyond religious ritual. He wants us to experience His essence individually. His essence should be known by all Christians at some point in their spiritual walk.
In the original 3 paragraphs above that sparked all the rancor coming out against them, I fail to find the need for anyone to moan or groan about what I had to say.
What fascinates me in all of this is in my initial paragraph I pointed out that the true essence of our Lord was in the E.O.C., apparent to me not stemming from tradition or ritual, but inherent in their testimony and witnessed to by the Holy Spirit, who's essence they deny can be experienced apart from tradition and ritual. I experienced His essence within them apart from their tradition and ritual.
Do I lean more heavily upon Christians of all denominations experiencing and worshipping the Father through His Spirit Who is Truth, as opposed to experiencing and worshipping Him in service traditions and rituals? Yes, I am guilty of that.
Blessings!
Love, In Christ Jesus, Saint701.
Concerning Greek Orthodox Churches
by saint701 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:33 pm
Hello All,
Blessings!
We thank God for your recognition of our Heavenly Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God, that you take comfort in finding Him in various rituals and services such as preaching the gospel and becoming partaker of Him through the Holy Eucharist. Having read several of your doctrines and tenets we can only say that we find Christ in you, and even though we have our life in the Trinity outside your traditions and services, we love you deeply as he that is born of God loves his brothers and sisters that are also of the household of God. We find your expression of love toward God to be as to one another beautiful and able to be experienced through your words as you have written them. Your very words have in them the essence of love. Through them we understand that the Holy Spirit bears witness to you, that you are begotten of God, because you love.
Nevertheless, we are somewhat perplexed that your tradition seems to be given greater credence than the Bible itself, and ritual given more credence than the actual experience of Christ within, and hold this to be true, that the exact essence of His being is to be known by all. To that we disagree, and do testify that Christ within is to be known even as the Apostle John said, we have the witness within ourselves in that He has given us of His Spirit.
Moreover, how can one know God is love, unless he has experienced His very essence? As the Apostle Paul said, the love of God is spread abroad in our heart by The Holy Spirit. Therefore we do pray that the essence of God in the person and work of the Holy Spirit overshadow you, and that you discover through that knowledge of Him that He is the very essence of love, and the embodiment of it. As those of the Apostle John in his day knew the Father, so the Father wishes to be known by His sons and daughters today.
Blessings!
Love, In Christ Jesus, Saint701.
It is most certainly far better to die in faith believing, than it is to live in unbelief.
saint701 Posts: 528Location: St. Louis, MOMarital Status: Waiting on God
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Re: Concerning Greek Orthodox Churches
by Guest » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:35 pm
saint701 wrote:Hello All,
Blessings!
We thank God for your recognition of our Heavenly Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God, that you take comfort in finding Him in various rituals and services such as preaching the gospel and becoming partaker of Him through the Holy Eucharist. Having read several of your doctrines and tenets we can only say that we find Christ in you, and even though we have our life in the Trinity outside your traditions and services, we love you deeply as he that is born of God loves his brothers and sisters that are also of the household of God. We find your expression of love toward God to be as to one another beautiful and able to be experienced through your words as you have written them. Your very words have in them the essence of love. Through them we understand that the Holy Spirit bears witness to you, that you are begotten of God, because you love.
Nevertheless, we are somewhat perplexed that your tradition seems to be given greater credence than the Bible itself, and ritual given more credence than the actual experience of Christ within, and hold this to be true, that the exact essence of His being is to be known by all. To that we disagree, and do testify that Christ within is to be known even as the Apostle John said, we have the witness within ourselves in that He has given us of His Spirit.
Moreover, how can one know God is love, unless he has experienced His very essence? As the Apostle Paul said, the love of God is spread abroad in our heart by The Holy Spirit. Therefore we do pray that the essence of God in the person and work of the Holy Spirit overshadow you, and that you discover through that knowledge of Him that He is the very essence of love, and the embodiment of it. As those of the Apostle John in his day knew the Father, so the Father wishes to be known by His sons and daughters today.
Blessings!
Love, In Christ Jesus, Saint701.
Dear Saint701, You are considerably more charitable and kind toward Orthodox Christians than some Evangelicals are. Robert A. Morey's book "Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?" betrays a Protestant hatred or at best disgust for the holy Orthodox traditions and truths. All Christians have the Spirit of Christ, and Christ can save anybody He wants to, regardless of denomination or "church tradition". But your perplexity about Greek Orthodoxy holding to "tradition" allegedly "more than the Bible" is a common misperception. Actually, everybody reads the Bible according to some tradition of Christian theology. To the degree they come from "the Spirit of truth" (John 15:26), they are all Christian. To the extent that they disagree with the intended meaning of the original authors of the Bible, they fall into false doctrine or even terrible heresies of some kinds.
Actually, Protestantism follows traditions that come from men no earlier than John Wycliffe in England at the earliest. To the extent this comes from just one individual's thinking, it is "the tradition of men", and not of the passed-down traditions from the 12 apostles of Christ and St. Paul, St. Barnabas, St. Timothy, etc. Certainly the West is by-and-large following its own self-inspired Augustinian traditions in its acceptance and endorsement and INSISTENCE upon "FILIOQUE" ("and the Son").
Perhaps you would benefit greatly by studying John 15:26 to see that the Holy Spirit "proceedeth from the Father", and this is what distinguished Eastern Orthodoxy from non-Orthodox theology. The Orthodox Church teaches this Gospel passage without false interpretation, and is The Truth from God (John 16:13) the Holy Spirit, Who guides into all truth of Christian theology. God bless you. God save us all because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ our LORD GOD and Saviour upon His Cross, and His glorious resurrection from the dead on the Third Day. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
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Hello Scott
by saint701 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:34 pm
Blessings!
Nice to meet you!
First, I studied the doctrines of the Greek Orthodox churches. They, not I, stated that they hold tradition above scripture. I personally have no tradition of understanding that you say all do, as my understanding of scripture has come to me directly from the Holy Ghost.
Also, according to their tradition, their Apostolic platform is the Apostle's Creed, again, tradition gathered by a committee of men.
Regarding the Holy Spirit and His gifts to us, the Orthodox do recognize such, but equate natural endowments with the supernatural.
The Spirit of Truth, which proceeds directly from the Father, who it was expedient for Jesus to die for us in so doing to send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, to come to us is hardly an area I lack understanding in. Jesus sent Him to us to lead us into all understanding, even to the point of not needing a man to teach us because He would lead us into all understanding.
Do I need to study these wonderful truths concerning the Holy Spirit? I do truly live their reality in my life on a daily basis, having been gifted with the the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of my Heavenly Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Lord God Almighty Love Dad.
That I was oh so kind to the Greek Orthodox in my first paragraph was in no way the natural me. That was the love of God within and withon hovering over every word given me to write, the second paragraph a plea for those like you to come to a real experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit. I know Him in His true essence, have bathed in that essence, and wrote in that essence about the Eastern Orthodoxy. I was fulfilling the law of His love to the orthodox, but not I, for only Christ within us can keep the law of love He demands of us.
I respect the fact that you are a scholar interpreting the writings of various denominations, yourself leaning toward orthodoxy, but in no way do I think of myself as a protestant, but a rebel against all of the half truths, false doctrines, and heresies that have brought upon this nation and the world a religious apostasy so dark and heinous that most, and I mean MOST churches no matter what their claim or denomination have become shrouds of darkness and a habitation for doctrines of demons to flourish.
To me, Christianity Oasis is a refreshing pool of pure spring water to those that thirst for only truth and righteousness in the sound doctrine of the Bible as revealed by our Lord's Spirit to His Holy Prophets and Apostles. That same Spirit now flourishes in us because we seek only His teaching to guide us. And that Spirit witnesses to everything the Apostles taught, and teaches us the same, even leading us to experience those things true of believers in their day.
I think of myself as a believer, one whose spirit looks into the things of the Holy Spirit to find the truths hidden in Christ. The Holy Spirit receives from the Lord Jesus and shows those things to my spirit who reveals them to my understanding. Such is called divine revelation as with Paul, or enlightenment.
No, I don't know everything, but I know enough of our Lord's teaching to stand my ground on His word and do it, not just talk about it. In His presence I do what He wills. He wills we love one another.
The other thing I know is my place in the true body of Christ Jesus on this Earth scattered among all men and women everywhere. I sew seeds of Christ centered truth. That's my place in Him, has nothing to do with any denomination, and as He has taught me I do and I abide in Him.
I have no personal agenda of my own here. My claim to fame is found only in my sufferings. I have no secret desires or ambitions in this Oasis but to share what I'm given to share by that which is not flesh and blood. I am thankful for my sufferings in Him. I am thankful I have found grace in His sight to be of service to Him. I love Him for those sufferings He has led me through, as now He treats me as His one of His sons.
Would that more would listen and find Him while he may be found.
Blessings!
Love you Scott, but don't hit me with that you should study such and such a scripture, as I'm all stocked up on it living in the life of the one that breathed on the Apostle John to write it, and I live in Him more and more every day.
It is most certainly far better to die in faith believing, than it is to live in unbelief.
saint701 Posts: 528Location: St. Louis, MOMarital Status: Waiting on God
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by dema » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:41 am
Luke 9:49-50 (King James Version)
49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
There is another reference where disciples are told to let the gospel be taught no matter who is teaching it.
My ex-preacher taught about Jehovah's witnesses in one sermon and about Mormon's in another. I asked why in the world would he do that on Sunday morning. His response was that there had been questions and that he didn't want his flock to be deceived.
I have personally known people from all these faiths - known them well enough to have conversations about their religions. And the fact is that all of them preach Jesus. And that where Jesus is preached, some will be saved.
And, I would be very, very careful about knocking something that involves God's children.
I agree that there is a lot of hoopla in a lot of religions. Some people need the hoopla.
I don't need to be on a different fast every week to remember that I am a Christian. I can worship sitting down - standing for two hours doesn't excite me at all. But, I am not going to knock the people who feel that they need this in order to prove their love for God.
Power corrupts. In any organization where there is authority, power and recognition there will be corruption. Pharisees are not extinct.
But there are many little sheep in all these places who love the Lord. And if you want to get them to a place of being better nourished, being angry is not the way to do it.
And these people are children in the Biblical sense. And it would be better for someone to tie a millstone around his neck and to jump into the lake than to offend one of these.
I agree Oasis is a refreshing place. I left the church that preached against the other religions shortly after that. I am saddened by much of what goes on in certain religions. I am saddened by those who believe some of these things, and even more saddened by those who cannot believe and yet feel trapped by family and culture in these religions.
I have also known Moslems and the cultural loss from conversion would be more than we are likely to be able to imagine.
We don't have to leave family and friends and our reputation when we become Christians. I don't know that we really understand the consequences of this.
In all of these religions, there have been people I loved and also people who truly love God. In most of them, I have known people who truly love Jesus.
We should be very careful in how we trod in this area.
dema Posts: 555Location: IndianaMarital Status: Engaged
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Re: Hello Scott
by Guest » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:58 am
saint701 wrote:*AngelYellow*
Blessings!
Nice to meet you!
First, I studied the doctrines of the Greek Orthodox churches. They, not I, stated that they hold tradition above scripture. I personally have no tradition of understanding that you say all do, as my understanding of scripture has come to me directly from the Holy Ghost.
Also, according to their tradition, their Apostolic platform is the Apostle's Creed, again, tradition gathered by a committee of men.
Regarding the Holy Spirit and His gifts to us, the Orthodox do recognize such, but equate natural endowments with the supernatural.
The Spirit of Truth, which proceeds directly from the Father, who it was expedient for Jesus to die for us in so doing to send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, to come to us is hardly an area I lack understanding in. Jesus sent Him to us to lead us into all understanding, even to the point of not needing a man to teach us because He would lead us into all understanding.
Do I need to study these wonderful truths concerning the Holy Spirit? I do truly live their reality in my life on a daily basis, having been gifted with the the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of my Heavenly Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Lord God Almighty Love Dad.
That I was oh so kind to the Greek Orthodox in my first paragraph was in no way the natural me. That was the love of God within and withon hovering over every word given me to write, the second paragraph a plea for those like you to come to a real experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit. I know Him in His true essence, have bathed in that essence, and wrote in that essence about the Eastern Orthodoxy. I was fulfilling the law of His love to the orthodox, but not I, for only Christ within us can keep the law of love He demands of us.
I respect the fact that you are a scholar interpreting the writings of various denominations, yourself leaning toward orthodoxy, but in no way do I think of myself as a protestant, but a rebel against all of the half truths, false doctrines, and heresies that have brought upon this nation and the world a religious apostasy so dark and heinous that most, and I mean MOST churches no matter what their claim or denomination have become shrouds of darkness and a habitation for doctrines of demons to flourish.
To me, Christianity Oasis is a refreshing pool of pure spring water to those that thirst for only truth and righteousness in the sound doctrine of the Bible as revealed by our Lord's Spirit to His Holy Prophets and Apostles. That same Spirit now flourishes in us because we seek only His teaching to guide us. And that Spirit witnesses to everything the Apostles taught, and teaches us the same, even leading us to experience those things true of believers in their day.
I think of myself as a believer, one whose spirit looks into the things of the Holy Spirit to find the truths hidden in Christ. The Holy Spirit receives from the Lord Jesus and shows those things to my spirit who reveals them to my understanding. Such is called divine revelation as with Paul, or enlightenment.
No, I don't know everything, but I know enough of our Lord's teaching to stand my ground on His word and do it, not just talk about it. In His presence I do what He wills. He wills we love one another.
The other thing I know is my place in the true body of Christ Jesus on this Earth scattered among all men and women everywhere. I sew seeds of Christ centered truth. That's my place in Him, has nothing to do with any denomination, and as He has taught me I do and I abide in Him.
I have no personal agenda of my own here. My claim to fame is found only in my sufferings. I have no secret desires or ambitions in this Oasis but to share what I'm given to share by that which is not flesh and blood. I am thankful for my sufferings in Him. I am thankful I have found grace in His sight to be of service to Him. I love Him for those sufferings He has led me through, as now He treats me as His one of His sons.
Would that more would listen and find Him while he may be found.
Blessings!
Love you Scott, but don't hit me with that you should study such and such a scripture, as I'm all stocked up on it living in the life of the one that breathed on the Apostle John to write it, and I live in Him more and more every day.
Dear Saint701, The Greek Orthodox Church would also claim that Church tradition comes directly from the Holy Spirit. Though I am not sure what the directly means in any case. You use the term "Holy Ghost", but that is a mistranslation based on the KJV. It should always be "Spirit" and not "Ghost". Anyway, you seem to think you have no intermediary. Actually, this is impossible. If a person receives their teaching "direct from the Spirit", one is still receiving teachings personally, and it is always possible for a person to be mistaken. If one sets oneself up as the source of all tradition, one ignores the other Scriptures in the Bible that speak of the Body of Christ. We are to be members of one another, not in isolation. As it is, that is precisely what is a problem in the West today. When we get different teachings on what the Bible means, it is our own fault as individuals, and that is all.
But it is impossible to read the Bible without some opinion creeping in.
And one can always learn more of what the Bible teaches. No one of us is incapable of error.
I believe people have a mistaken view of the Greek Orthodox Church.
They also go astray with "sola Scriptura" (by "the Bible alone"). Everything the GOC believes comes from the Bible, but not from the Bible alone. It is impossible to know how to administer communion and baptism using "the Bible alone", because the Bible does not say "how".
There are many things the Bible is silent on, and for filling up this silence with God's truth, we need God's Tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15).
I would suggest you read 2 Thessalonians 2:15 if you think everything a Christian believes is written only in Scripture and is only written, not oral or by word. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
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Re: Hello Scott
by Guest » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:04 am
saint701 wrote:*AngelYellow*
Blessings!
Nice to meet you!
First, I studied the doctrines of the Greek Orthodox churches. They, not I, stated that they hold tradition above scripture. I personally have no tradition of understanding that you say all do, as my understanding of scripture has come to me directly from the Holy Ghost.
Also, according to their tradition, their Apostolic platform is the Apostle's Creed, again, tradition gathered by a committee of men.
Regarding the Holy Spirit and His gifts to us, the Orthodox do recognize such, but equate natural endowments with the supernatural.
The Spirit of Truth, which proceeds directly from the Father, who it was expedient for Jesus to die for us in so doing to send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, to come to us is hardly an area I lack understanding in. Jesus sent Him to us to lead us into all understanding, even to the point of not needing a man to teach us because He would lead us into all understanding.
Do I need to study these wonderful truths concerning the Holy Spirit? I do truly live their reality in my life on a daily basis, having been gifted with the the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of my Heavenly Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Lord God Almighty Love Dad.
That I was oh so kind to the Greek Orthodox in my first paragraph was in no way the natural me. That was the love of God within and withon hovering over every word given me to write, the second paragraph a plea for those like you to come to a real experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit. I know Him in His true essence, have bathed in that essence, and wrote in that essence about the Eastern Orthodoxy. I was fulfilling the law of His love to the orthodox, but not I, for only Christ within us can keep the law of love He demands of us.
I respect the fact that you are a scholar interpreting the writings of various denominations, yourself leaning toward orthodoxy, but in no way do I think of myself as a protestant, but a rebel against all of the half truths, false doctrines, and heresies that have brought upon this nation and the world a religious apostasy so dark and heinous that most, and I mean MOST churches no matter what their claim or denomination have become shrouds of darkness and a habitation for doctrines of demons to flourish.
To me, Christianity Oasis is a refreshing pool of pure spring water to those that thirst for only truth and righteousness in the sound doctrine of the Bible as revealed by our Lord's Spirit to His Holy Prophets and Apostles. That same Spirit now flourishes in us because we seek only His teaching to guide us. And that Spirit witnesses to everything the Apostles taught, and teaches us the same, even leading us to experience those things true of believers in their day.
I think of myself as a believer, one whose spirit looks into the things of the Holy Spirit to find the truths hidden in Christ. The Holy Spirit receives from the Lord Jesus and shows those things to my spirit who reveals them to my understanding. Such is called divine revelation as with Paul, or enlightenment.
No, I don't know everything, but I know enough of our Lord's teaching to stand my ground on His word and do it, not just talk about it. In His presence I do what He wills. He wills we love one another.
The other thing I know is my place in the true body of Christ Jesus on this Earth scattered among all men and women everywhere. I sew seeds of Christ centered truth. That's my place in Him, has nothing to do with any denomination, and as He has taught me I do and I abide in Him.
I have no personal agenda of my own here. My claim to fame is found only in my sufferings. I have no secret desires or ambitions in this Oasis but to share what I'm given to share by that which is not flesh and blood. I am thankful for my sufferings in Him. I am thankful I have found grace in His sight to be of service to Him. I love Him for those sufferings He has led me through, as now He treats me as His one of His sons.
Would that more would listen and find Him while he may be found.
Blessings!
Love you Scott, but don't hit me with that you should study such and such a scripture, as I'm all stocked up on it living in the life of the one that breathed on the Apostle John to write it, and I live in Him more and more every day.
Dear Saint701, It is misleading to state that the GOC holds tradition "above" Scripture. Scripture is written tradition; Church tradition is both written and unwritten (oral). Both Scripture and tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:25) come from God. According to St. Paul in Thessalonians, some tradition is by word, and not written. What is "the pillar and ground of the truth" is not Scripture in isolation from history in the private libraries and private teachings of Christian individuals. The truth comes in Christian community. It is individuals who sometimes distort the Scripture. Christ spoke to all His apostles, not just to St. Peter.
One inevitably, if one rejects Church tradition, will make a tradition of one's own. If one thinks one's tradition comes directly from God, from the Holy Spirit, how does one know that? One needs other Christians to verify whether or not one has heard from God. I am sure God can and does speak to individual hearts. But our life was not intended by Christ to remain in isolation. We need each other, we need other believers. Even more than we need this forum, we need our local churches and Christian community in the local areas.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
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Hello Scott
by saint701 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:43 pm
Good morning to you! May the Lord bless you, keep you, and make His countenance to shine upon you this day.
Blessings!
Well Scott, since we insist on batting tradition back and forth across the net, we might as well enjoy the game, as no one will stand or fall based upon our separate perspectives.
The revelation of God came directly from God by the Holy Spirit to St. Paul who then orally and in writing preached it among the gentiles, establishing churches wherever his revelation was received.
The word tradition in Greek, (paradosis), can also be translated as an ordinance, or law for Paul's people to follow. In the context of 2 Thes. 2:25, the ordinance in question was orderly, as in how Paul walked among them, as apposed to disordily, which is how some of the Thessalonians were walking. Many times in Paul's writings he warned of the dangers inherent in walking in this life according to the flesh rather than after the Spirit. Such minor ordinances stem from our Lord's commandment to love one an other.
In all cases by "Paul's" gospel, (special revelation from the Holy Spirit revealed only to him and not to the rest of the Apostles, Peter saying of Paul's revelation, some things difficult to understand. Such nullifies your argument that one can't receive revelation directly from the Holy Spirit, establishing a tradition of their own. Such is not a tradition, but instructioin from God. If I, who also am a part of a church body here in St. Louis, received divine revelaltion and it did not line up exactly with the teachings of the New Testament writings, I, myself would be deceiving those on here and elsewhere I write to. But I preach Jesus, Him crucified and resurrected, the first born from the dead, the sender of the Holy Spirit, who should be the teacher of all, thus desoving the traditions of all denominations so the harmony that exists in the Truth of God could be alive in all His body on this Earth.
Even where I attend church there are many that hold more to historical accounts of faith in God pieced together under the Emperor Constantine in the early 3rd century. The leaders of my congregation say that which was know by the Apostles seems to have passed away, and are not part of our experiences anymore.
I don't argue with them, or shout out such to be nonsense as what the Apostles wrote in terms of common experiences back then are alive in me and many others today. If I should speak up, I would be out of harmony with the doctrine they have boxed themselves in to. My purpose there is to worship God, not cause discord. If one believes he cannot recieve revelation, understanding, and wisdom directly from the Lord, then he will not.
You see, that is the problem with tradition, it boxes churches in to a certain set of doctrines out of harmony with what should be the common spiritual experiences of all Christians.
If what I receive directly from the Lord lines up with the gospels and the epistles, and is further verified by experience that agrees with the aforementioned being witnessed to by the Holy Spirit, what need do I have to submit the grace that I have been given to earthly authorities for verification, seeing He that has verified what has been given to me is the Holy Spirit. Who is the greater witness? Should my spirit cry, "abba, father" being the Holy Spirit witnessing with my spirit that I have become a child of God be submitted before an earthly committee for verification? Who, besides the person receiving that experiential revelation could testify such has happened in His life? What other man or church can verify what has been given to me separately, not by tradition but Bible fact verified in the Word of God, and attested to by the Holy Spirit.
The truth is that traditions held by many denominations much more resemble traditions of the pharisees and saducees of the Lord's day. Of their tradition, Jesus said all of the following.
Matt.15
1.[2] Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
2.[3] But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
3.[6] And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mark.7
1.[3] For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
2.[5] Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
3.[8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
4.[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
5.[13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Gal.1
1.[14] And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Col.2
1.[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
That our Lord Jesus has set me apart for His purpose, what is that to you? It is a light thing for me to be judged by men, for it is the justification of God that I walk in the light of, and my righteousness is of Him.
Blessings!
Love, In Christ Jesus, Saint701.
It is most certainly far better to die in faith believing, than it is to live in unbelief.
saint701 Posts: 528Location: St. Louis, MOMarital Status: Waiting on God
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My Dearest Deema..
by saint701 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:12 pm
Hi Deema,
Blessings!
One has no need to fear that he is offending our Lord's little ones if one is preaching to adults. Do you remember the churches our Lord had the Apostle John write to in the first portion of the Book of Revelation? Do you remember in the many writings of Paul how he disputed teachings even with the Apostle Peter, and how Paul continually admonished churches he had founded to stop walking one way and get on the correct path?
It seems that you either passed over my first reply to Scott about the presence of the Holy Spirit in the essence of His perfect love did wrap Himself around me as I was directed to write about the GOC? Where is the anger? Just because one stands his ground on the Word of God should not be misconstrued as anger. Love also admonishes and corrects, and what true child of God has not received His rod of correction?
Blessings!
Love ya, Den.
Anger doesn't have to be a part of every arguement.
It is most certainly far better to die in faith believing, than it is to live in unbelief.
saint701 Posts: 528Location: St. Louis, MOMarital Status: Waiting on God
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Re: Hello Scott
by dema » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:09 pm
saint701 wrote:*AngelYellow*
Blessings!
I respect the fact that you are a scholar interpreting the writings of various denominations, yourself leaning toward orthodoxy, but in no way do I think of myself as a protestant, but a rebel against all of the half truths, false doctrines, and heresies that have brought upon this nation and the world a religious apostasy so dark and heinous that most, and I mean MOST churches no matter what their claim or denomination have become shrouds of darkness and a habitation for doctrines of demons to flourish.
To me, Christianity Oasis is a refreshing pool of pure spring water to those that thirst for only truth and righteousness in the sound doctrine of the Bible as revealed by our Lord's Spirit to His Holy Prophets and Apostles. That same Spirit now flourishes in us because we seek only His teaching to guide us. And that Spirit witnesses to everything the Apostles taught, and teaches us the same, even leading us to experience those things true of believers in their day.
The first paragraph above is why I thought there was anger involved.
The second of the paragraphs I selected above is one reason to like Christianity Oasis - and I very much do. I have lived a spiritual life of never completely agreeing with anyone, but have found it most expedient to focus on the agreements and let disagreements go unless they were part of a specific problem that was either involving me or presented to me for a solution. And yet here, I have found virtually nothing with which to disagree, and where I have questioned a statement I found questionable, I have received a thoughtful response.
The seond reason that I really, really like Christianity Oasis is actually my first reason. There is love without judgement here. There is no knocking of other religions or of people for reasons that might be construed as being doctrinely valid.
Your discussion is apparently an intellectual debate of sorts. More exploration of ideas than rancor. Part of me says, "And what does that hurt?" Part of me says, that there is still disparagement of a Christian group. The Greek Orthodox religion does include devout people who absolutely believe that Jesus is the Son of God and their personal Lord and who believe that God raised him from the dead. These people are saved and at least some of them are being fed from this source. I have personally known a number of them.
Is your debate part of a solution?
Does it belong here where such hypersensitive people as myself can stumble over it and be offended? I admit to hypersensitivity in this area. And since I know that I am heavily biased, I cannot answer my own questions.
You say that you were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write. I cannot vouch for your inspiration. I know when the Holy Spirit inspires me and while I cannot tell you that I am being inspired right now, again because of my bias, I can tell you that I have prayed and listened and given the Holy Spirit the chance to restrain me and I have not received any such restraint, instead I have a sense of peace in writing this.
This Oasis is a refuge. A safe place. A place where seeking people of all brands and labels should be able to be fed without prejudice. If I was Greek Orthodox and saw my church on the main page in a forum topic, I would go there. And while your discussion is heavily intellectual, I think that I would be disparaged.
Perhaps this discussion should be in PM? This is a suggestion - I have no authority here.
As I mentioned, I am very sensitive about the possibility of disparagement of anyone who is seeking, particularly a new believer. I am very tired of Pharisees in churches of all sizes and descriptions. The Bible says "Judge Not" constantly and defines the contexts broadly and definitely and yet Christianity has alienated millions with a judgemental attitude that directly defies these Biblical edicts.
And I do not agree that new Christians are not to be treated as children. I understand your statement and Bible references, but I do not agree with the contextual interpretation.
Your conversation reminds me of that on ASA - American Scientific Affiliation. The American is a misnomer. The membership is international.
I like ASA - though I no longer participate. It has restricted membership - must be a scientist and a Christian to join. It is a great place for such discussions. Quite different than this refuge for hurting people.
My opinions are my opinions - if they are considered and weighed, then I consider them to have done their job, whether or not the advice is taken. No hard feelings whichever way you go. Thank you for your previsous response.
dema Posts: 555Location: IndianaMarital Status: Engaged
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by Christianity Oasis » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:25 pm
Uh huh ...
Amen Dema and most souls feel the same way.
We had several complaints about these posts.
I dunno about the rest of ya, but I have been calling the entity which is God's Spirit by the names of Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost for two decades now in Studies, Programs, Prayer and communion and have not had HIM correct me.
I am thinking HE judges by the HEART and SPIRIT in man's words and heart ... NOT the letter.
Thinking I will let GOD be my judge and not ... The likes of man and his wisdom.
Carry on brother Saint701
Luv ya bro
Jesus is coming ... Get your soul prepared.
Christianity Oasis Posts: 289Location: Path to HeavenMarital Status: Single
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Which matter carries the most weight?
by saint701 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:38 pm
Hello Deema,
Blessings!
Let's review. Here is the bombshell I dropped on C.O. a couple of weeks ago concerning E.O.C's. I will begin with the first paragraph breaking it down into its roots in love and commendation.
Paragraph 1.
We thank God for your recognition of our Heavenly Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God, that you take comfort in finding Him in various rituals and services such as preaching the gospel and becoming partaker of Him through the Holy Eucharist.
Having read several of your doctrines and tenets we can only say that we find Christ in you, and even though we have our life in the Trinity outside your traditions and services, we love you deeply as he that is born of God loves his brothers and sisters that are also of the household of God.
We find your expression of love toward God to be as to one another beautiful and able to be experienced through your words as you have written them.
Your very words have in them the essence of love. Through them we understand that the Holy Spirit bears witness to you, that you are begotten of God, because you love.
Paragraph 2
Nevertheless, we are somewhat perplexed that your tradition seems to be given greater credence than the Bible itself, and ritual given more credence than the actual experience of Christ within, and hold this to be true, that the exact essence of His being is to be known by all.
(This paragraph was written in response to the E.O.C.'s claim that our Lord Himself could only be experienced within the E.O.C. and its rituals, that our Lord's true essence cannot be known by anyone on this planet).
To that we disagree, and do testify that Christ within is to be known even as the Apostle John said, we have the witness within ourselves in that He has given us of His Spirit.
(In this phrase I simply stated that such a claim that Christ can only be experienced through the E.O.C. and the E.O.C. rituals was not in harmony with the teaching of the Apostle John, and I have found the witness of the Apostle John to be true within myself).
Paragraph 3.
Moreover, how can one know God is love, unless he has experienced His very essence? As the Apostle Paul said, the love of God is spread abroad in our heart by The Holy Spirit. Therefore we do pray that the essence of God in the person and work of the Holy Spirit overshadow you, and that you discover through that knowledge of Him that He is the very essence of love, and the embodiment of it. His essence should be known by all His children. As those of the Apostle John in his day knew the Father, so the Father wishes to be known by His sons and daughters today.
Simply put, our Lord desires us to know Him personally. He wants us to know that He prefers we find Him above and beyond religious ritual. He wants us to experience His essence individually. His essence should be known by all Christians at some point in their spiritual walk.
In the original 3 paragraphs above that sparked all the rancor coming out against them, I fail to find the need for anyone to moan or groan about what I had to say.
What fascinates me in all of this is in my initial paragraph I pointed out that the true essence of our Lord was in the E.O.C., apparent to me not stemming from tradition or ritual, but inherent in their testimony and witnessed to by the Holy Spirit, who's essence they deny can be experienced apart from tradition and ritual. I experienced His essence within them apart from their tradition and ritual.
Do I lean more heavily upon Christians of all denominations experiencing and worshipping the Father through His Spirit Who is Truth, as opposed to experiencing and worshipping Him in service traditions and rituals? Yes, I am guilty of that.
Blessings!
Love, In Christ Jesus, Saint701.
It is most certainly far better to die in faith believing, than it is to live in unbelief.
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saint701 
- Posts: 697
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