Christianity Oasis Forum

[vahn]

That is a plaque I saw yesterday , that sent my head all over the place .

Paul says we are not bound by the Law any longer , our Lord says He came to fulfill it .
The Law was given (my knowledge of it) to make us see who we are . Sinners , you break one commandment you break them all right ? So .
There are so many that one cannot and will not ,on his own power , not break at least 2 of them, especially of the commandment on a daily basis .
Break one and you're done for the day right ? That's where Christ comes in , when He said I came to fulfill the Law , He meant FOR you , because you can't do it without Me . No one cane fulfill the Law , without His aid , no matter how goodie-two-shoe of christians they may think they are .
Paul , as zealous and dedicated he was both before and after his conversion could not do it , ie: 1) Killing christians because and in the name of the Law , while the Law is saying you should not kill . 2) After his conversion he's still saying " why do I do things I know I don't want to do and I don't do the things I want ?" . There's something missing in those two statements isn't there ? Where's Jesus ?

One of the first things I was taught , admire and live by to the best of my ability , is that , as Christians we're to uplift each other . Now I don't know about anyone else , but the way I see it , in order for me to up-lift anything that thing or person must be down first right ? duh !?!?!
As one Christian trying to uplift another Christian (yes , there is a diff. if one of the two wasn't) is , by the Word of our Lord without any other ulterior motive in mind , for if I did , the harm done would be far greater than if I would've just left the man down and hoping someone else , more effective would step in , rather than playing goodie-two-shoe with the purpose of covering up the real motive behind my doing so , the ultimate result of that would be hypocrisy wouldn't it ?

My dear brothers and sisters , I dont know if "thou shalt not lie is somewhere in the Law , if its not written , God probably didn't think was nessecary 'cause if we were to live by our Lord's Directions we would not have to anyway . But I do know this , don't use My Name for your
own justifications ( in vain) is ! Now here , if I were to be asked a question that I know my answer would cause harm to another , I will lie ok ? It is better for me to suffer having to tell a lie and take it up with my Lord , rather than having caused a harm or more to another just to save face or my skin . But to say something like "I'm doing this because of service to my Lord ", excuse me ! does anybody see the word lord in there ? or is it just me ?

"The Truth shall set you free" without it, you will be bound by your own deception and bind others with you in the process , with it , you will free them as well .

[goldieluvs]

hmmm vahn, theres just one part of this i wanna respond to. When you said if it will harm another u will lie. What do you mean by that? Ok i may not disclose totally as sometimes our perceptions get in way of that. Are u talking God Truth or worldly truth? Cuz, well im a lil confuzzled about that part. Ok like if i know someone who just got the worst outfit that they love i dont tell them it looks horrible, i may say oh u got a new outfit, wat an interesting style. That is prolly wats called a lil white lie to keep from hurtin anothers feelings, but there are times when truth needs to be told in as loving a manner as possible. Else, how do people grow if we hide the truth? Just a thought.

[vahn]

First off Goldie , thank you for your reply .

Well yes of course I am talking in a worldly manner when it comes to lying , if , and only if , I was asked a question about a third party's involvement in certain activity that I was being made aware of (but , say, not witnessed myself) but nevertheless know the situation being true and also knowing that with the unfolding of the truth will definitely harm a mutual friend , and the individual initiating the situation is absolutely sorry about their action for they know that the third party will be deeply affected , why cause more harm for the first individual on top of his guilt and have the other disappointed or feel betrayed by both of us ? I mean we all three would pay a price right ? I find it best to make aware for the first individual that he needs to take to God first and make right with Him first . As of for me , if asked if I know anything , "I don't know" will be a lie , and I have to make right with God as well .

[goldieluvs]

ohhh i c sorry for the misunderstanding, yeah i would encourage the two to speak with each other, encourage them to seek and show fruits of forgiveness and love. we all make mistakes, i think that is how we learn though is from those mistakes. If we were perfect there would not have been a need for Jesus to die for us.

Ah and the being made aware but not a witness of, we all have our own perceptions so i am not necessarily seeing that as a lie unless u r asked specifically wat a person has said to you. And then choosing not disclose is not a lie, merely encouraging them to deal directly with the issue. Remembering we all say things we regret when angry. So, i think if i understand correctly (and lots of times i don't so please forgive me if i am outta line and off base here), I would just ask them to talk with the other person involved directly and leave u outta da middle as u weren't there and are therefore only receiving others perceptions, which are sometimes not actually Truth. If worldy truth can even be found ( something else i ponder on but will save that for another day)

Thank you my brother for posting and i am sorry i confused what you were speaking or typing rather GBU brother.

Walk in peace

[vahn]

No need to be sorry Goldie
And you kno ? that is exactly what goes on alot , one person saying something and being misinterpreted , and in turn make dicissions on their own misiterpretations and get disappointed , rather than asking and finding out , what was said . but , like you said , itsa process , not an event huh ?

But all that is besides the point of the topic , the thing I was meaning to say was not to say something meaning something else (lying ?) , and use or put the Lord's name in the same sentence , you either leave the Lord's name out of it , or dont say anything at all , especially amongst ourselves as Christians .

[deetu]

I, personally cannot lie anymore. Last time I told a lie, I kept apologizing to God and felt terrible. He forgave me but I don't want to do that again.

vahn, instead of saying "I don't know" is it possible for you to say something like "I'm not at liberty to say" or something similar?

and goldie, when you tell someone that you notice they are wearing a new outfit and it is interesting, that is not lying, you are telling the truth. They ARE wearing a new outfit and it IS interesting.
As a matter of fact, I think that is wonderful how you still encourage without lying.

Leviticus 19:11
John 8:44
Colossians 3:9
1 John 2:21

[Dora]

Vahn I am reading and rereading trying to get to the root of the topic.

What I keep coming into is you are trying to do what you feel called to do. Which puts a smile on my face.

I also see you keep coming back to this third party and what they are doing.

As if you are getting distracted by counseling these hurting souls by watching to see if the third party does as you feel they should.

Of coarse we are to watch fruits, but we must be careful to not judge what we feel another Christian should or shouldn't be doing.

For one reason, we can see others sins at times, when they have not been revealed to them yet. We are to pray and wait for leading by the Holy Spirit as to when and if we are to share, while waiting we pray for the individual. It's all about God working in them to completion, not us.

Also, we do not know all that the Lord is working in this person. You spoke of reaching someone with this person. As if you wanted to work together to reach this hurting soul. The truth shall set you free. If you knew the truth as to what both these individuals were going through you would find understanding. Understanding as to why the one needed help and the best way to help them and understanding as to why the 3rd party didn't meet your expectations. This is not saying they didn't meet Gods expectations. Yet you do not know so you must trust the Lord knows as has them in the place he wants them. You are only there as a voice, not a judge, not the ultimate healer, as that is Gods job. As you speak to each of these individuals you must lean on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and always with an unselfish love. When self gets in the way, we can cause harm to others.

I want to encourage you to continue reaching others as you feel led and allow others to reach as they feel led in the way each of you are led to do.

God bless you brother.

[Lani]

Hey Vahn

Awesome post...

as Christians we're to uplift each other

As His children, we are to help in whatever way He calls us.

In order for me to up-lift anything that thing or person must be down first right ?

What a glorious world this would be if we didn't have this to consider... but a sad reality of the way the world is now, is everyone is "down" at one time or another. We all need uplifting and encouragement in His word... without it... the world will appear to be the only "truth".... This is something I will fight until my last breath to change for anyone I come in contact with.

As one Christian trying to uplift another Christian (yes , there is a diff. if one of the two wasn't)

So that I don't misunderstand this statement... maybe we could discuss it in greater detail sometime. I will reserve my response until I have better understanding of what you are trying to convey.

I dont know if "thou shalt not lie is somewhere in the Law

Indeed it is referenced many times... Proverbs, Leviticus, Psalms... to name a few, but He knows your heart brother.

Thanks so much for taking the time to post and share Vahn.

Peace and Luv in Christ,

Lani

[comfy]

As deetu already has given > Leviticus 19:11 > "'"You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another."'" But there are people who should not be trusted with information that we have. Telling the truth, also then, can be dishonest, if we are telling what we should not be telling.

There were things that Jesus told the disciples *not* to tell people. And so, surely if what you knew was NOT a good thing of God's kingdom . . . this "might" not be worth and worthy of telling. Why would you get involved in such things, if you are here for telling what is in God's kingdom? If one wants to know something so he or she can operate in what is not in God's kingdom . . . you do not need to be helping with this.

But if we are not perfect, we can get in situations where we are not ready to handle what to do > we are not right for telling people certain things, but also we are not wise enough to know what to do, instead. Paul has shared > "No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier." (2 Timothy 2:3) Perhaps, then, we as less mature Christians can get ourselves in the middle of things we are not going to be ready to handle as these things turn into what they are leading to

And then, there we are, caught looking, not knowing how to be cooking. And we see we must not lie, but don't know what to do, instead > so . . . we just need to give ourselves to You, LORD, for how You make us more how Jesus is so we are the living truth and not just telling the truth > "Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds," (Colossians 3:9, again supplied by deetu . . . thank you ) So . . . being able to tell the truth really right and know what to do comes with putting on more of the new Man Jesus in us

So . . . then . . . the law has served its purpose > exposing how we need to do better to not lie > and bringing us, then, to how we need to get more to be like Jesus > "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24) Because without You, Jesus, we cannot handle these things right, as You say, "without Me you can do nothing." (in John 15:5)

Now, I understand that Christian counseling confidentiality does not require you to cover up for how someone is wrong and has done wrong. Also, if you have a relationship with someone, for friendship, now maybe you might see it is good to start off with an agreement about how you agree you both are free and welcome to handle a situation like this. And if the person expects secrecy about what is wrong . . . no, you are not going to get me into that sort of a thing. And if someone is involved in what you are not ready to handle between these people, you can take this up to someone more mature who can handle these people and their situation. And, of course, there is spiritual warfare of just holding your peace in prayer to break the curse that is working to happen. And then say what the LORD has you saying once you are clear with Him. And, no Satan, you will not get me into this. I think of how Jesus says that when we are before the judges . . . do not be trying to rehearse and figure out ahead of time what we will say, but God will give you what to say, in that time, if we trust and obey this . . . Mark 13:11.

When I have gotten with counselors or started relationships with pastors or ones to be close to me . . . often, as soon as I realize this is going to be a relationship of trust, I tell the pastor or friend that there is no secrecy about whatsoever that person ever finds out about me . . . so the person is free to use the information about me in any good way, without needing to check with me, first. One may need to be able to use me as an example in counseling someone; how could I not welcome him or her to use what he or she knows about me to help someone, if I love others as much as myself??? And I say this is because I am *trusting* the person, not trying to *control* him or her the way I want. And I'm trusting God with the person to direct what the person does with stuff he or she knows about me.

[vahn]

First , I apologize for the "late" reply , and I do wish I had read them before the "reason" for reply took place .

Even though lying was not the intended purpose of this post , but given the fact that I ask the Spirit's Guidance in everything I do , if the Spirit chose the subject of lying to be emphasized instead who am I to disagree right ?

Yes , lying of course is wrong no matter how we dress it up , justify or rationalize it . To me it is a constant reminder of how human we all are and hence the strengthening of the belief how much closer I need to stay to my Lord and his Directions , as I said before , if I were to follow my Lord's Directions , the need to lie would not present itself , I mean , before I go any further , let's take a look at Adam , as long as he was doing what the Lord asked him to do , there was absolutely no reason to lie whatsoever right ? Further , even at the very first time he ever lied , he still didn't point his finger or or blame God , by saying " Well You were the one who gave me the brains !! " Which what my intention of the post was to begin with , "Not to use or put the Lord's name in the same sentence when you know there is something other than His will had taken place " I mean Adam, or Eve for that matter , didnt say "Well, let's see ,
this is a good day to tick the Old Man off and get ourselves evicted " No , they did it because that's what humans do , one does wrong , the other follows and alls fine and dandy , until that is they get "caught" that's where the lie begins . The lie did not "start" with the serpent , It's his nature to lie , birds fly , fish swim , and The Liar lies , there is absolutely no sense in pointing the finger at him to justify our wrongdoings especially when it comes to lying , as in Adam and Eve , one points to the other and the other points to the serpent and God's going " Yo , yo , I dont care WHY you did it or who Made you do it , you DID it " Now here's my thought of what He'd probly had continued saying , " If you had come to me BEFORE you got caught , I may have treated it in a different manner"

But anyway , funny how I myself got sidetracked huh ? (but then again that's normal with me)

Ok , time for Hi Lani's

As one Christian trying to uplift another Christian (yes , there is a diff. if one of the two wasn't)

maybe we could discuss it in greater detail sometime.

Well Lani , I found myself asking "where did that come from ?" when I wrote it , but then again like I said when I let the Spirit do the writing this is what I end up with , .... a longer version of a short post . But that's how He teaches me .

One Christian uplifting another Christian vs one Christian uplifting a non christian .
See , the non christian is already "down" and usually there's a sense of willingness and co-operation in them to get up , and on our part , should that willingness and co-operation happen to be absent , we can simply walk away without hard feelings , "shake the dust off your garment ...?"

But , it's a bit diff with trying to up-lift a fellow Christian because first we have to deal with healing the guilt that accompanies the "stumble " or "fall" so to speak , and besides the fact that he had once been "up" already and they know what to do , it makes it harder for us to use the same method we would with the non . and as a result a give and take ensues and the longer we stay the course the more danger we feel of following suit ourselves and agreeing with them and at the same time we can't just simply "shake the dust off ... " without feeling guilty about it ourselves .

Makes sense ? (what did I write ? would somebody let me know?)